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JWest

POV cameras and Jump number.

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>POV cameras are only a distraction if you let it be.

Cameras are distractions whether you want them to be or not. Can jumpers handle the additional distraction? Depends.

We know one thing for sure. "I will just turn it on and forget about it" is simply not true, no matter how much you want it to be.

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JWest

That's why I put the option for it to be approved by DZO/S&TA.

I'll listen to my instructors/experienced persons advice before a random/experienced person because they have seen me fly and know what I may/may not be capable of.



I think you should practice what you preach. Get your decisions vetted at the local level, and help us lower the amount drivel on this website in the process.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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piisfish

***I bet you'd be a good bowler.

the problem is the GoPro mount on the ball. You can't give a good spin....

Use a lower profile GoPro bowling ball mount, duh.

Make sure it has a cutaway. Just in case. You never know.

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JWest

But it is true because myself and others have been doing it for years.



Do you have any idea how many ski, mountain bike, surfer, and other sport fatalities are related to people who "just turn it on and let it record?"

It's a very high, and frightening number. Skydiving is actually quite a bit lower, but that has nothing to do with skillsets, it's that objects to hit are a bit farther away and there is a lot of luck involved.

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DSE

***But it is true because myself and others have been doing it for years.



Do you have any idea how many ski, mountain bike, surfer, and other sport fatalities are related to people who "just turn it on and let it record?"

It's a very high, and frightening number. Skydiving is actually quite a bit lower, but that has nothing to do with skillsets, it's that objects to hit are a bit farther away and there is a lot of luck involved.

So in other sports there are people who get distracted by their POV camera, and there are people who do not. Saying that using a POV camera in skydiving is safer then some other activities might not be received well in this thread.

dragon2

***
You bring up a solid point in distinguishing between the two. Indiscriminately filming is much different than being dedicated video.



Yes, IMO in many ways the dedicated videoflyer is safer.

Because they are generally more experienced flyers and have dedicated camera setups? I would agree there. However assuming the same low number of jumps/camera setup for the everyone involved. I would think that dedicated video would be less safe. I'm interested to hear your reasoning on this.

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JWest


Because they are generally more experienced flyers and have dedicated camera setups? I would agree there. However assuming the same low number of jumps/camera setup for the everyone involved. I would think that dedicated video would be less safe. I'm interested to hear your reasoning on this.



Well I started with considerable sympathy for your position but....

At some point you should listen. Reading you rationalize against input you are given as you ask for more input is a bit much. Nobody with under 200 jumps would/should be doing outside camera but that's not the only reason it is safer but implicit in this is a "qualified" experienced camera flyer who takes it seriously.

Here's a poll just for you: Did you start this thread for affirmation, for an argument or for advice that might save your life?

Have you changed your mind on this: "I will probably wear a camera before 200 jumps and I will do it safely"

Do you remember writing this: "I will do it by recognizing that the camera is a distraction"

I think you've managed to change my mind on this issue, I was wrong AGAIN. Nobody should be jumping camera with less than 200 jumps. New jumpers are just too green and full of dumb ideas, I've been there and know the feeling, and still suffer from the malady in many respects.

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This is going to be a long post.

dorbie

***
Because they are generally more experienced flyers and have dedicated camera setups? I would agree there. However assuming the same low number of jumps/camera setup for the everyone involved. I would think that dedicated video would be less safe. I'm interested to hear your reasoning on this.



Well I started with considerable sympathy for your position but....

At some point you should listen. Reading you rationalize against input you are given as you ask for more input is a bit much. Nobody with under 200 jumps would/should be doing outside camera but that's not the only reason it is safer but implicit in this is a "qualified" experienced camera flyer who takes it seriously.

Here's a poll just for you: Did you start this thread for affirmation, for an argument or for advice that might save your life?

Have you changed your mind on this: "I will probably wear a camera before 200 jumps and I will do it safely"

Do you remember writing this: "I will do it by recognizing that the camera is a distraction"

I think you've managed to change my mind on this issue, I was wrong AGAIN. Nobody should be jumping camera with less than 200 jumps. New jumpers are just too green and full of dumb ideas, I've been there and know the feeling, and still suffer from the malady in many respects.

Input that is not defendable is not quality input. I agree that nobody with under 200 jumps should be doing outside camera work. You said dedicated, not experienced thus me asking for a clarification. Dedicated could just mean someone filming outside video. Doesn't matter, we are on the same page with that.

I didn't start this thread for any of those reasons. I started this thread to find out why people believed what they do, what are the real hazard with cameras, to see if it was one of those things that no one questioned anymore, and to see if people really cared more about jump number than ability. I received those answers awhile back and even commented that this thread had served it's purpose.

Have I changed my mind? In a way yes. If I don't wear a camera before 200 jumps it won't be because of safety reasons. If I do and something goes wrong on a jump, say I mess up a landing 100% do to bad timing or winds someone will make the comment that I shouldn't have had a camera on because I have less than 200 jumps. Even if the camera had no play in the incident at all, herd mentality will follow. I don't want that mentality to be spread because of me. Yes, inner defiant me wants to "show them" but that's the wrong reason to do it.

Concerning the safety aspect, a camera is a snag hazard -some large and some minimal-, there is no denying that. The number of reported incidences due to a camera snag is very low compared to "incidences" due to distraction. When I do jump a camera doesn't mater if it is before or after 200 I will be aware of this. Once you become informed about risks you can take actions to mitigate those risks.

I do remember writing that. Yes I wrote 'is' as apposed to 'can be' feel free to twist it however you want. It could be extremely distracting to one person while essentially being non-existant to another. I should have wrote that it is another element to be considered but oh well I wrote what I wrote.

I jumped all last weekend with two guys who have cameras, they also have less than 200 jumps!:o Oh the humanity!!! But I've got a surprise! We are all still alive! Granted they are in the 180s, 190s, and we basically just did three way belly stuff if anyone was curious. Now that I'm thinking about it during these jumps not once did I think about their cameras. They were non eventful jumps so I didn't even think about it after the jump either.

Now I will state this again and again. Some people are better at staying focused and handling stressful situations than others, regardless of jump number. There are people capable of safley flying a camera before 200 jumps and their are people incapable of safely flying a camera with more than 200 jumps. One of those statements people will disagree with and one they will agree with. Why? Because thats just the way it is.

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JWest


Now I will state this again and again. Some people are better at staying focused and handling stressful situations than others, regardless of jump number. There are people capable of safley flying a camera before 200 jumps and their are people incapable of safely flying a camera with more than 200 jumps. One of those statements people will disagree with and one they will agree with. Why? Because thats just the way it is.



I don't think many people disagree with any of those statements. Certainly I don't. But I think you are missing the point/s:

-The jump limits are not set thinking in the best skydivers, they are set thinking in the average.
-People are pretty bad at assessing their own capacities. How do you know that you can handle a camera (and its distraction and what comes with it) better than the average skydiver? The answer is you can't. Experience in other situations do not fully translates to the sky.
-You don't know what you don't know.

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dorbie

Here's a poll just for you: Did you start this thread for affirmation, for an argument or for advice that might save your life?


Personally my participation in this thread was to try to change the status quo to what I would consider "safer" and "better" views on cameras.

I feel I am the antithesis to popular belief about GoPros - I just so happen to have been jumping with a GoPro since roughly jump 70, and haven't had an issue because of the process I went through prior to jumping. No mad skillz, no youtube footage, just a video logbook. And conversely, I feel that camera-horny 200 jump wonders do really stupid stuff out of camera/footage hornyness.

... but at some point all meaningful discussion ceased, so I've been viewing this thread for primarily a good chuckle at human ignorance. :)

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JWest

But it is true because myself and others have been doing it for years.



Years huh.

In all those years you apparently haven't made enough jumps for this not to be an issue for you.

Your actual problem here is that you don't (yet) know what you don't know. This is fine and completely normal.

The problem people putting jump number limits have is that they don't know what you don't know. But before 200 jumps, they have a pretty damn good idea.

FWIW, I have a reasonable number of jumps and I occasionally jump with a camera. I know my own game well enough, skydiving-wise, that I can tell it's a distraction. A small one, but real.

Super talented though you may be, you do not have this sensitivity to your own state of mind while jumping yet. It will develop - and you will look back on this thread and go "ah ha".

In the meantime, you're clearly going to do what you're going to do. You will probably not get hurt, so there will be a time where you continue to think we are all idiots. Maybe it will be another 500 jumps? Maybe less.

One way or another, it won't last forever.
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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JWest

Input that is not defendable is not quality input.


When the input from experience jumpers is near unanimous and backs up club recommendations and is backed by sound reasoning and video and many other threads it's time to listen. Where is the well reasoned rebuttal that merits a new defense?

JWest

Yes I wrote 'is' as apposed to 'can be' feel free to twist it however you want.


I quoted you exactly and fairly, I twisted nothing. I quoted this because of the apparent contradiction. You might have been onto something back when you wrote that. You've since rationalized away that inconvenient moment of clarity. This should be a red flag to you about how you're approaching this decision.

JWest

I jumped all last weekend with two guys who have cameras, they also have less than 200 jumps!:o Oh the humanity!!! But I've got a surprise! We are all still alive!


The only shocking thing is what this implies about your knowledge of statistics. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this is simply rhetorical nonsense because you're feeling defensive.

JWest

Now I will state this again and again. Some people are better at staying focused and handling stressful situations than others, regardless of jump number.


The Dunning–Kruger effect tells us that the less we know about a topic the more likely we are to overestimate our abilities in it. You are not qualified to make such a determination and there is a big difference between rationalizing what you desire to do and reasoning whether you should.

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lyosha

I just so happen to have been jumping with a GoPro since roughly jump 70,
...conversely, I feel that camera-horny 200 jump wonders do really stupid stuff out of camera/footage hornyness.



What's worse? A camera horny 70 jump wonder or a camera horny 200 jump wonder?

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Deimian

***
Now I will state this again and again. Some people are better at staying focused and handling stressful situations than others, regardless of jump number. There are people capable of safley flying a camera before 200 jumps and their are people incapable of safely flying a camera with more than 200 jumps. One of those statements people will disagree with and one they will agree with. Why? Because thats just the way it is.



I don't think many people disagree with any of those statements. Certainly I don't. But I think you are missing the point/s:

-The jump limits are not set thinking in the best skydivers, they are set thinking in the average.
-People are pretty bad at assessing their own capacities. How do you know that you can handle a camera (and its distraction and what comes with it) better than the average skydiver? The answer is you can't. Experience in other situations do not fully translates to the sky.
-You don't know what you don't know.

I agree that other experiences do not fully translate into the sky. They could however give you a basis to start your analysis. Since the limits are set thinking of the average the DZO/S&TA should be able to give above average people the permission to jump a camera and prevent below average people from jumping one.

DSE

me? I'm very grateful for all the low-time POV camera-wearers. They post their screwups, and provide terrific training material for those of us that coach.:D:D



It also helps us learn and get better. One thing I didn't mention before one of my buddies is a dedicated camera flyer so he films quite a lot of our jumps for practice until he can do tandems. That's extremely valuable.


Joellercoaster

***But it is true because myself and others have been doing it for years.



Years huh.

In all those years you apparently haven't made enough jumps for this not to be an issue for you.

Your actual problem here is that you don't (yet) know what you don't know. This is fine and completely normal.

The problem people putting jump number limits have is that they don't know what you don't know. But before 200 jumps, they have a pretty damn good idea.

FWIW, I have a reasonable number of jumps and I occasionally jump with a camera. I know my own game well enough, skydiving-wise, that I can tell it's a distraction. A small one, but real.

Super talented though you may be, you do not have this sensitivity to your own state of mind while jumping yet. It will develop - and you will look back on this thread and go "ah ha".

In the meantime, you're clearly going to do what you're going to do. You will probably not get hurt, so there will be a time where you continue to think we are all idiots. Maybe it will be another 500 jumps? Maybe less.

One way or another, it won't last forever.

Years of POV camera use not skydiving. You are correct I do not personally know how wearing a POV camera in skydiving will compare to wearing one during other activities. I only have the observations of others who use them for multiple sports. I am aware that my particular skydiving knowledge is very limited and I look forward to learning as much as I can.

dorbie

***Input that is not defendable is not quality input.


When the input from experience jumpers is near unanimous and backs up club recommendations and is backed by sound reasoning and video and many other threads it's time to listen. Where is the well reasoned rebuttal that merits a new defense?

JWest

Yes I wrote 'is' as apposed to 'can be' feel free to twist it however you want.


I quoted you exactly and fairly, I twisted nothing. I quoted this because of the apparent contradiction. You might have been onto something back when you wrote that. You've since rationalized away that inconvenient moment of clarity. This should be a red flag to you about how you're approaching this decision.

JWest

I jumped all last weekend with two guys who have cameras, they also have less than 200 jumps!:o Oh the humanity!!! But I've got a surprise! We are all still alive!


The only shocking thing is what this implies about your knowledge of statistics. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this is simply rhetorical nonsense because you're feeling defensive.

JWest

Now I will state this again and again. Some people are better at staying focused and handling stressful situations than others, regardless of jump number.


The Dunning–Kruger effect tells us that the less we know about a topic the more likely we are to overestimate our abilities in it. You are not qualified to make such a determination and there is a big difference between rationalizing what you desire to do and reasoning whether you should.

I don't consider constantly repeating part of the recommendation from the SIM to be considered quality input. "It's 200 jumps because the SIM is written in blood. Cameras are a snag hazard and a distraction." that is not sound reasoning against letting DZO/S&TA give people the go ahead to jump a camera.

You didn't twist it, I was just expecting you to in your reply. I went back and read the context of that comment. I understand my thought process now. Official standpoint, A camera is a distraction but some people can prevent it from distracting them during the jump. You have to turn it on. That is a distraction, or just part of your preparations such as zipping up booties and checking handles, depends how you look at it. Lets just go with distraction because its's a "non- essential."

I actually know quite a lot about statistics. Part of my math minor was statists and part of my engineering curriculum was engineering statistics. If you were trying to use statistics to show nothing bad happen because it is very unlikely according to the numbers I would agree. That's more for my argument than against it. Anyway I included that part to be a smart ass.

That is not the Dunning–Kruger effect. Some people are better at handling stress than others. Some people are capable of learning faster than others. Some people understand things naturally while others do not. These are all proven, it's why an average exists. This is not something you can argue against.

I don't desire to jump a camera. If I wanted to I would. My DZ has told me they are ok with it. I've said this before, I'm not trying to rationalize anything.

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JWest

***
You bring up a solid point in distinguishing between the two. Indiscriminately filming is much different than being dedicated video.


dragon2


Yes, IMO in many ways the dedicated videoflyer is safer.



Because they are generally more experienced flyers and have dedicated camera setups? I would agree there. However assuming the same low number of jumps/camera setup for the everyone involved. I would think that dedicated video would be less safe. I'm interested to hear your reasoning on this.

Mostly because dedicated camera flyers seem to THINK more about what they're doing, and take it more SERIOUSLY. They don't just slap on a gopro and going about their regular FS/FF/whatever jumps as if it's no big deal.

Second because on the whole, dedicated camera people are a little bit removed from the action, so they have a much lower chance of opening low due to distraction (mainly when filming FS), and of getting their camerastuff entangled with other jumpers in the door/on exit/in freefall collisions as has happened a few times with gopros or even just their mounts (snagging reserve handles, FS grips and whatnot). Again especially when filming FS, the outside cameraflyer also has plenty of time to look at the ground for the spot and for altitude.
When filming CF of course there is much less chance of the dedicated camera flyer getting involved in a canopy wrap/entanglement.

And thirdly because filming the action is the outside cameraflyer's job, they are free to focus on that instead of turning points AND filming AND minding their cameragear all at the same time. Even if you COULD "forget" about the filming part, you cannot totally forget you have a camera mounted when flying in close contact with others.

Also your emergency procedures have to take into account your camera(s).

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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That all makes sense. I kind of get the impression that you think a camera flyer (of any kind) should be minding their gear and "forgetting" about it is a bad idea. Due to the snags and such. If you think they should be actively thinking about their gear during the jump, is that your reason behind not wanting low time jumpers using them? Because they shouldn't be focused on anything besides the dive?

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>But it is true because myself and others have been doing it for years.

And drunk driving is safe because many people have been doing it for years. Really - how often does a drunk driver make it home safely? Probably 99% of the time.

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billvon

>But it is true because myself and others have been doing it for years.

And drunk driving is safe because many people have been doing it for years. Really - how often does a drunk driver make it home safely? Probably 99% of the time.



That is a terrible comparison. Comparing someones ability to forget about a POV camera and the safety of driving under the influence. That's impressive.

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>Comparing someones ability to forget about a POV camera and the safety of driving
>under the influence.

I'm not comparing the two things. I am showing you that the claim "a bunch of people have been doing it for years" is a poor criterion use to claim that something is safe - whether that thing is drunk driving, jumping a NOVA, not maintaining your aircraft or low time camera use.

If your first reaction to those comparisons is "those are nothing like each other! There are far more variables that go into whether each thing is safe! Just because people do those things a lot doesn't mean any of them are safe" then I agree. (And that was my point.)

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