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JWest

POV cameras and Jump number.

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i had 1,735 skydives when i first "added a video camera"... is THAT more than 200?????;)
It was 1995. 2 or 3 others at nearby DZs were already videoing tandems. We always worked as "teammates " and not adversaries and shared the workload. A few of us videoed Fun Jumps as well, and helped tremendously during de-briefs. Our footage was GOOD, and centered, and creative.
it felt Good to be a camera person.....

today,,, things are different. Hand Cam and Oh No Go Pro !!!!:o:S:PB|
..Not so much fun, when EVERYbody is doin' it...imho

jimmytavino uspa #9452
A 3914 D12122

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Where is the option for 50 jumps?

I'd say, if you can fucking jump out at night time, dealing with traffic, lights, chemlights, and other shit, you can jump with a GoPro.

Or have 200 jumps minimum for a night jump.

Throwing someone out at night with 50 jumps is insane compare to having someone put on a gopro at 50 jumps.

Just don't be like those fucking idiots who burns entire jump run, checking wether it is turned on or not. Fucking hate those last minute, "Hey? Is this thing turned on?".

Skydiver who has jump number between 100-500 need the gopro the most. The reason being is, that is when you have the best footage, and once you hit 500 jump you don't really care about the video. So go on and film. Just don't ask around the dz, just do it. It is like downsizing, just do it, never ask.
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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Skydiver who has jump number between 100-500 need the gopro the most. The reason being is, that is when you have the best footage, and once you hit 500 jump you don't really care about the video. So go on and film. Just don't ask around the dz, just do it. It is like downsizing, just do it, never ask.



Like THESE guys recently did? - :S
coitus non circum - Moab Stone

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It boils down to maturity. Are you mature enough to accept and abide by the recommendations in the SIM? If not then maybe skydiving is not for you. We can argue this a million different ways but it can always be diluted down to the one thing that is needed to proceed to the next point...maturity. Coming up with reasons to not adhere to the SIM is enough to stop the conversation. Have fun trolling it for all it's worth.
Chad B Hall
Woo hoo!
My goal is to make every jump a fun and safe one. Blue skies!
Some of my videos...

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cbjetboy

It boils down to maturity. Are you mature enough to accept and abide by the recommendations in the SIM?



Let me start by saying I have no axe to grind (I do wear a camera sometimes but often don't .. as others have said the result is more often boring)..

Anyway there is an alternative (or rather an addition) to sucking it up and abiding by your SIM .. and that's to put forward a credible argument and get your SIM changed.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

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That being said as someone with less than the 200 jumps I want people to know what I personally think.


When receiving directions and guidelines on defusing IED's on a roadside without getting yourself killed in the proces, would you be intersted in the opinions of a seasoned veteran who defused hundreds in, say two consecutive tours or from the guy in the middle of his third week bomb school training?

Thats what I thought :)
Funny how people think it would be different when operating parachutes in a real life free fal environment and the does and don'ts when organising and filming that action.

Stupid gets you killed. Luckily not all the time, but as a ground rule it goes a long way. B|

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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Scrumpot

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Skydiver who has jump number between 100-500 need the gopro the most. The reason being is, that is when you have the best footage, and once you hit 500 jump you don't really care about the video. So go on and film. Just don't ask around the dz, just do it. It is like downsizing, just do it, never ask.



Like THESE guys recently did? - :S


This was happening before even the POV cameras.
I saw a 3 way speed star which ended in low openings and one guy got a two-out with a cypress fire. That guy was even an SL instructor.

POV cameras bring us lots of fun. :S

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This particular case I think it has much more to do with two rookies trying to get that grip by any means than actually because they had cameras.

Rookies often do that, focusing on getting the grip rather than anything else. I would say that It is very common for rookies to do that. I saw it several times in different dropzones and happens with people that jump with cameras and without.

I think that in cases like this, It was even good that there was a camera to show all the shit a scary things that can happens if you do anything stupid or because of any sort of big lack of skill.

Cameras can be very usufull debrief and learning tools (if used properly).

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mrkeske

This particular case I think it has much more to do with two rookies trying to get that grip by any means than actually because they had cameras.

Rookies often do that, focusing on getting the grip rather than anything else. I would say that It is very common for rookies to do that. I saw it several times in different dropzones and happens with people that jump with cameras and without.

I think that in cases like this, It was even good that there was a camera to show all the shit a scary things that can happens if you do anything stupid or because of any sort of big lack of skill.

Cameras can be very usufull debrief and learning tools (if used properly).



Dont inject common sense into the discussion. I disagree with this silly obsession of blaming all incidents on small cameras as it detracts from the real issues.

Lets face it Cypres preceded gopro, strange really as before gopro nobody ever lost altitude awareness.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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>This particular case I think it has much more to do with two rookies trying to get
>that grip by any means than actually because they had cameras.

Agreed. The camera was just one piece of the chain that led to this incident. A larger link was two low time jumpers trying to dock.

>Cameras can be very usufull debrief and learning tools (if used properly).

And they can lead to injuries and even deaths when used improperly. As with any tool, it's all in how you use it.

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billvon

>This particular case I think it has much more to do with two rookies trying to get
>that grip by any means than actually because they had cameras.

Agreed. The camera was just one piece of the chain that led to this incident. A larger link was two low time jumpers trying to dock.

>Cameras can be very usufull debrief and learning tools (if used properly).

And they can lead to injuries and even deaths when used improperly. As with any tool, it's all in how you use it.



Honestly I disagree that the camera was a link in the chain (in this incident). Not that I think people should be jumping with cameras.

I do relwork coaching and without cameras, you get people 100% focused on turning the next point and completely forgetting to look at their altitude. Here is australia you have to complete a rel work table as part of your B license, and the hardest 'fail' that I have had to do was an amazing jump where we turned an incredible number of points - but not once did he check his altimeter and I as coach had to initiate breakoff.

In THIS incident - a very real link in the chain is that is looks like neither jumper had an audible. Here is Australia an audible is mandatory for any camera jump and note that here it is 100 jumps to jump with a camera.

Audibles are compulsory for freefly here, but not flat fly. I encourage people to not use an audible during their initial coach jumps so they develop that early sense of time, but to use one as soon as they get their B license.

In 5 pages of discussion, as far as I recall this is the first time an audible has been mentioned. That to me is the danger of the camera obsession.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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What I find interesting is that everyone seems to focus on the C license "requirement" in the SIM. The SIM doesn't require a C license. It recommends a C license. I don't think the C license or any number of jumps is the best way to determine whether someone is ready for a camera or not. I think flying ability and more importantly ability to deal with malfunctions or unexpected occurrences under stress would be a more appropriate guideline. I have jumped with C and D license jumpers that I would never trust in a high stress situation. I have also jumped with A license jumpers that have a good head on their shoulders.

It seems to me it would be better to have a requirement or recommendation that camera jumping is generally prohibited until signed off by a local S&TA or I. There should be a progression card like the B license canopy proficiency card that involves freefall skill evaluation by an appropriately rated jumper as well as perhaps a short written test specifically related to camera jumping and maybe evaluation of emergency procedure preparedness in a hanging harness. Once someone has demonstrated competency in these areas they should be able to qualify for a camera rating that goes on the USPA membership card like any other rating.

I fail to see how a jumper can be a coach at 100 jumps and spend their freefall watching a student and giving hand signals/correcting a student in freefall, but they can't wear a camera. Seems like a new freefall student is more distracting than a camera, especially when you are responsible for debriefing on the ground afterward.

I have a C but I don't jump a camera. I have...it's just not important to me. That being said, I don't coach students. If I were coaching someone I would wear a camera so they could see for themselves what they did and how to improve.
www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

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I agree on the audibles. It helps a lot on altitude awareness if you have audibles.

Today, I see them as much more important altitude awareness tool than a visual altimeter. Most experienced people I know relly on them for altitude awareness much more than visuals, be it for freeflying or FS, especialy FF. And the fact that it is so important for me for altitude awareness, I use two, both set at the same altitudes, in case one fails, for example.

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mrkeske


Today, I see them as much more important altitude awareness tool than a visual altimeter. Most experienced people I know relly on them for altitude awareness much more than visuals, be it for freeflying or FS, especialy FF.

I still just use a visual altimeter. I've used audibles in the past, but, like you said, they seem to fail from time to time. Don't rely on any one thing too much. You should know when you've been in freefall too long.;)

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I agree on the audible comments. I was going to make a "for the price of that gopro they could have each bought themselves a couple audibles" joke but I thought of that at work and couldn't rewatch the video to confirm no audibles. Missed opportunities...

In regards to training yourself with audibles, a guy I know came up with a method that I rather like. You set your first alarm at around 6500 ft. This is the "coming up on breakoff" alarm and gives you confirmation that your audible is functioning. If it's not working, then by the time you notice "hey, my audible should have gone off" you're probably right about at break-off altitude anyway. Also, there's no immediate action so you don't turn into pavlov's dog. The second altitude you set for break-off, and the third you set at your hard deck. (Those two should be fairly self explanatory)

You'll note no "pull" alarm. That's on purpose.

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I will probably wear a camera before 200 jumps and I will do it safely.



No you won't. Not at most major dropzones anyway. We (S&TA's) will not allow you to do it. You'd be surprised to find out how many dropzones have written policies prohibiting it.

Chuck Blue
D-12501
AFF/TM/SL-I, PRO, S&TA (among other things)

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>Honestly I disagree that the camera was a link in the chain (in this incident). Not
>that I think people should be jumping with cameras.

Well, here we have an incident where two people disregarded their altimeters because they were distracted by trying to close the formation. That was the #1 distraction. The desire to "get video of the dock" and secondarily the attention that that requires (in this case, to not look down because that would screw up the video) are also likely factors. To your point, lack of a backup source of altitude awareness (like a dytter) was also a factor - provided that the dytter was used as a backup and not as a primary means of altitude awareness.

One thing I have noticed when jumping with low time groups are that people with cameras on their heads tend not to move their heads as much. I actually heard this mentioned after a jump once. (I hesitate to call it a "debrief" because it was just three guys clustered around a laptop saying "cool!") One person mentioned to the guy with the video "man, you're making me sick, moving your head so much!" That suggestion is going to tend to lead to people who don't look down because of the cameras on their heads. (And obviously, this incident could have been avoided with just a bit of looking down.)

In fact this is a bigger problem with POV video than traditional video, because traditional video isn't on-level and tends to have a much better view of the ground.

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billvon

>Honestly I disagree that the camera was a link in the chain (in this incident). Not
>that I think people should be jumping with cameras.

Well, here we have an incident where two people disregarded their altimeters because they were distracted by trying to close the formation. That was the #1 distraction. The desire to "get video of the dock" and secondarily the attention that that requires (in this case, to not look down because that would screw up the video) are also likely factors. To your point, lack of a backup source of altitude awareness (like a dytter) was also a factor - provided that the dytter was used as a backup and not as a primary means of altitude awareness.

One thing I have noticed when jumping with low time groups are that people with cameras on their heads tend not to move their heads as much. I actually heard this mentioned after a jump once. (I hesitate to call it a "debrief" because it was just three guys clustered around a laptop saying "cool!") One person mentioned to the guy with the video "man, you're making me sick, moving your head so much!" That suggestion is going to tend to lead to people who don't look down because of the cameras on their heads. (And obviously, this incident could have been avoided with just a bit of looking down.)

In fact this is a bigger problem with POV video than traditional video, because traditional video isn't on-level and tends to have a much better view of the ground.



I agree with this. I have heard the same thing at our DZ.
And personally I think most inside video sucks anyway. Maybe as a late diver you can get some good footage but seeing someone in the base with a Go-pro...what's the point?
You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

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Cameras can be useful not just for getting cool video of your jump. I don't wear one, but recently was very happy that my dive partner did. There was a situation that could have resulted in an incident. I brought it to the attention of a more experienced jumper in the group that exited before us, who I felt had made an error. Being much more experienced, he naturally accused us of being the ones who made an error, and convinced one of the staff that was what happened. Despite my protests, I was getting lectured. The video from my partner very clearly showed that we did not do what we'd been accused of doing, and it was indeed the more experienced jumper who made a potentially serious error in safety protocol.

So I'd argue that there is a safety/review aspect of flying a camera that offsets at least some of the disadvantages of wearing one.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

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