0
JWest

POV cameras and Jump number.

Recommended Posts

NWFlyer

The longer I'm in the sport, the more I want to tell people to just keep your POV camera off your head because for the love of all things good in the world, your footage sucks. Fuck safety, 99% of POV footage is boring, repetitive, derivative, and just flat out lame.

Now, you kids get off my lawn.



Careful, you'll sound like me shortly.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JWest

I have read the sun. It says C license. Not 200 jumps. Yes 200 jumps is a prereq for a C license. It is not the only thing.



Since you're such an educated student of logic, surely you've seen this:

If A=B and B=C than A=C.

So if a camera requires a C license, and a C license requires 200 jumps, than a camera requires 200 jumps.

I don't care how many jumps you have. My question is, how old are you? I'm pretty sure you're 17.

Your next post should be footage of your first camera jump. I'm sure it will be so sick that it will redeem this whole shitty thread.
Apex BASE
#1816

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You are correct. However a C license also recommends everything a B license has, everything an A license has, and some. So to fly a camer it requires everything a B license has, everything an A license has, and some. Which is not the same thing as just 200 jumps. I ask you whats the most imports part of your C license, 200 jumps or successfully demonstrating landing accuracy, canopy control, and free fall control?

My age also does not not have anything to do with this conversation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JWest

Interesting, any specific reasons why? Is the 3-way due to the camera or the jump number.



A person with 200 jumps and who is doing his or her first camera jump should keep the jump simple. There's no reason to introduce something new on a type of jump you aren't very comfortable with. And at 200 jumps I think a three way with at least one of the other people having several hundred jumps or more fits the bill. The size here is a consideration for their sake.

A person with 150 camera jumps and 200 jumps total has probably stunted the development of their flying skills. As I said before, you can start out thinking it's a flight data recorder, but once you start watching your video it gets in your head and it gets in the way. Plus if they started jumping a camera with 50 jumps they no doubt think they're a boss at it having done it a whopping 150 times, and chances are good they'll do something stupid. The size here is a consideration for my sake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
champu


1. A person with 200 jumps and who is doing his or her first camera jump should keep the jump simple. There's no reason to introduce something new on a type of jump you aren't very comfortable with. And at 200 jumps I think a three way with at least one of the other people having several hundred jumps or more fits the bill. The size here is a consideration for their sake.

2. A person with 150 camera jumps and 200 jumps total has probably stunted the development of their flying skills. As I said before, you can start out thinking it's a flight data recorder, but once you start watching your video it gets in your head and it gets in the way. Plus if they started jumping a camera with 50 jumps they no doubt think they're a boss at it having done it a whopping 150 times, and chances are good they'll do something stupid. The size here is a consideration for my sake.



Those are both excellent points. Let's assume their flying skills are the same for the sake of this. The first one knowing the jumper may be distracted, it's safer to keep the dive simple for their sake. Also since the camera wearer is less comfortable there is less chance they will do anything risky.

The second scenario the camera flyer being more comfortable has the potential to be more risky. While they may not be nervous they might out perform they flying skills. Keeping the jump simple makes it safer for everyone else.

Actually very interesting. When you look at it with a single scope having the camera as the only factor the logical thing would be the 150 camera jump guy. When you change the scope to involve the camera, flight ability, and behavior. Logic would lead to the jumper with no camera jumps. Of course than can be other factors such as maturity and personality but lets not get into that.

I've been looking at the camera as the only factor. With being distracted as the main cause of incidents-which it is-. So if you limit the distraction you limit the risk. While logically correct it doesn't factor in confidence. While the flying abilities may be on par with another 200 jumper there confidence may exceed their flying ability.

Thanks for not spouting the normal rhetoric and actually providing something useful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You said you have about 70 jumps, right? Maybe I am wrong, either way...

http://www.skydivemag.com/article/20130828-c-is-for-camera-and-common-sense

Since you keep writing how important the opinion of Dropzone Safety Officers should be on this matter, rather than just sheer numbers, let me introduce you to something written by Brian Burke, who is one of the most experienced DZ Safety Officers in the world. His opinion is quite clear.
I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JWest

... Of course than can be other factors such as maturity and personality but lets not get into that...



That's actually a bigger part of it than you might think.

The attitude of "That's just a recommendation and it doesn't apply to me"or "I'm so good I don't have to follow those rules" or "I want to do it now, so you should help me do it even though I'm nowhere near the standard qualifications" all indicate an attitude that either disregards the inherent risk or has the "it won't happen to me" factor.

That is someone who I'm not terribly comfortable being in the sky with.

I'd be much more comfortable with a brand new A license holder who knows he isn't very good than a "100 jump wonder" who thinks he's so good he doesn't have to follow rules and recommendations.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Personality, flying skills, attention to safety, and willingness to follow general experience recommendations are (in my observation) not really as separable as you suggest. You generally get the whole package for better or for worse.

It's why you have to give out free pizza and beer at safety day. The people who don't really need to be there show up anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JWest

My age also does not not have anything to do with this conversation.



No, but your attitude does and those two things are related.

Like I said before, go jump your camera and post the radical footage. I can't wait to see it. Be sure to use "Sail" for the music.
Apex BASE
#1816

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JWest

***so for the instructors out there:

have you ever given up on a student?

At what point do you say 'fuck it' and go and teach someone who wants to learn?



I'm always up for learning. Information is the key to success.

Learn not to start a "camera" thread on DZ.com....really.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
> My question is why can we trust one group of people to ignore the camera while
> the second group we can't?

Well, different environments for one thing. You might be OK with someone texting while walking to school but not be OK with them texting while driving to school. What's the difference? The tasks they have to perform without distraction are different.

> In theory both groups should be well trained to do what they need to do to save
>their own lives and should be able to do so even if there is a camera in the vicinity.

Agreed. I don't think someone with a new A-license can reasonably be considered "well-trained" though.

>Maybe there is something to be said for the idea that part of the problem is the
>taboo that is placed on the camera. If we didn't make such a big deal out of it
>would it still cause as many issues?

I think so. I have been jumping for 23 years and have seen cameras progress from VHS monsters to the Gopros. The ability for cameras to distract seems the same - at our Cessna DZ we had pretty regular distraction problems like clockwork whenever we'd start a new cameraman. Camera would hit the door on climbout - cameraguy would stop and fuss, tandem master would also stop and wait, spot would get very long, then they'd both go. "How did the spot get so long? I called the cut at the right place." Etc.

But the problems were very rare overall. Why? Because it was freaking hard to jump with a camera. They were heavy, didn't work well in the wind, there weren't many standard helmets available (more adapted Protecs than anything else) and they were expensive. You couldn't plop down $300, peel off the protective film and stick it on your helmet.

Thus these problems have always been there. However the "filter" that kept most people from using cameras too soon (the fact that they took a lot of work and skill to use) has been removed. Thus we're seeing more common usage and a consequent increase in problems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>A person with 150 camera jumps and 200 jumps total has probably stunted the
>development of their flying skills.

About six years ago I was jumping in Eloy and was on the plane with Airspeed, doing a video for someone else. I started talking to Kirkby who knew I had been on a player-coach team a few years back with Pat McGowan. We talked about 4-way and 8-way a bit and he said "you're definitely doing this in the right order. A lot of cameramen have no clue how 4-way works and try to start videoing 4-way because they figure it's pretty easy. Doesn't work out."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have helped quite a few new camera users over the years with setups and advice and have yet to see a single person just plop it on their head and go skydive without it interfering with the success of the dives.

its in the back of their mind that its there and the camera flys them in a way- they fly different than when its not present.

Roy
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
yoink

I bet the Dutch regs are equally stringent.



Naw, they're allright.

Used to be a C-licence, but they relaxed it to B-licence now, but you need written permission from an instructor in your logbook.

You also need 200 FS-jumps for freefall.
Or, 10 CReW jumps (outside only; 100 CReW jumps for inside CReW).
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DocPop

IT'S FUCKING "THAN" NOT "THEN".

If you don't sort your grammar out, how are people supposed to take your shit seriously?



"Than" is a comparison, "then" is basically saying next.

My bad if I swapped them somewhere. Besides I'm glad I'm awesome at math and engineering. Spelling is not my strong subject.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pretty much sick of these threads.

1) The 200 jump number is arbitrary. Australia has it at 100 and is the mother of all nanny states.
2) The 'distraction' argument is frankly weak, although there is some limited merit.
3) Very few people treat snag hazards seriously anymore. Whether they have 20 or 2000 jumps they are bolting stupid cameras to their heads on full face helmets with no thought to the safety aspects. Hell at least the 20 jump newbie doesn't put it on a 2ft long pole on their fullface helmet with no cutaway to get really selfies like the guy with 2000 jumps.
4) 99% of the footage is crap. I find it amusing to watch 10 people sit watching 20 camera angles from their 5 way angles jump:D
5) Someday someone on the ground is going to get taken out by a falling camera. Cameras get knocked off, fall off so frequently nowadays.
6) I really don't want to be in a plane when someone puts a reserve over the tail, because they insisted on wearing their stupid camera as an inside diver with their head rammed up against someones handles. Jump numbers are irrelevant, this stupidity is rampant - used to be stupidity reserved for free-fliers, now every 2nd belly flier thinks they need inside footage of the jump as well.

I'm grumpy and need a snickers bar:D
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
craigbey

And you don't even need 200 jumps for boobies.



Correct but I suspect with the boogie option, it could be the winner. IOW go away to the OP.

Could be helpful if there was a stickie in the bonfire and general skydiving referring all camera questions to the camera forum. But that's up to the mod,

dz.com needs the traffic so argue away. Again and again and again.
One Jump Wonder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0