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JWest

POV cameras and Jump number.

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>I don't understand how someone sticking a small camera on their helmet for their
>hobby should carry as much consideration and regulation as it does in skydiving.
>We let these people jump out of an airplane for Christ sake. Can we not trust
>people with a camera?

Historically, we can't. Small format cameras have been a factor in a lot of incidents.

Take your case. Let's say that there was a fairly high incidence of injury to SWAT team members when they were wearing cameras, and the reason they gave was routinely "well I wanted to make sure the camera saw the suspect" or "I wanted to make sure it was on" or "I didn't want to damage the lens." In that case a SWAT team might reconsider their decision to put cameras on people.

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JWest

4. It doesn't matter what I say or how much logic I use. I'm a kindergartner compared to most of you and don't know anything in your opinion.



It's true, no matter how much logic you use, you will not change the opinions of those with decades of experience with respect to long-standing guidelines that have been written with blood.

And you don't sound like a kindergartner, you sound more like a teenager arguing that he should be able to legally drive at 14. And maybe that teenager is a genius, and very logical. But again you're right: no matter how much logic he used to argue his case, he would not get any adults around him to pat him on the back and give him the keys to a car and a driver license. The adults would tell him to wait two more years like everybody else, and if the kid was as smart as he thought he was, he would listen.

All of which again begs the question of what you hope to accomplish with this post.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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Hitting trees in the number one cause of death in downhill skiing. Closely followed by suffocating in a tree well and coalitions with people.

I am not saying it won't happen to me. It it completely possible that it will. If you are responsible you can lower the risk of it happening. Same as we do by conducting gear checks. We are mitigating risk. But we can never make it go away.

What I hoped to accomplish with this post is to change the mentality that simply saying wait till 200 is not the best way to do it. Setting guidelines or a progression is a much better option.

After reading some of these posts I will probably wait longer than what I originally planned. I'll wait till I'm comfortable with the canopy I recently downsized to, till I'm comfortable with my new full face helmet, till I'm comfortable with my new audible. That could take 10 jumps it could take 100 jumps. Everyone learns at a different pace. When I feel comfortable to wear a camera I'll ask if the DZO and people I jump regularly if they are comfortable with it. If they are, I'm going to wear it. If they are not it will stay in the ground. I prefer to see myself on camera because it is the best learning tool. Only downside is that low jump number people generally jump with other low jump number people who cant wear cameras.

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JWest



What hoped to accomplish with this post is that simply saying wait till 200 is not the best way to do it. Setting guidelines or a progression is a much better option.



Here's an idea.

Put together a proposal for guidelines and a progression. If you're savvy about it, you'll get the support of some long-time, well-respected experts who've been around skydiving for a while and can help to give your proposal the credibility that comes with the support of trusted sources.

Bring the propsoal to your USPA Regional Director for discussion. See if he or she will bring it to the Safety & Training committee for a discussion.

Go to the USPA meeting to support your presentation.

Or just whine about it on the internets if the above sounds like too much work.

(Edit to add this assumes you're a USPA member and the 200 jump recommendation that USPA has in the SIM is what you're concerned about. If not, then substitute appropriate governing body process above).
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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That is a great suggestion. Unfortunately since I am inexperienced and do not jump a camera I would not be able to create such a progression. However once I get a solid number of camera jumps That is something I will be able to do.

Just off of the top of my head things like:
1. Demonstrate proper emergency procedures to remove helmet/camera with tension on camera. (Can be simulated by tying a string to the camera mount and pulling in various manners.) Then demonstrate cutaway procedures if the helmet/camera is preventing proper deployment of main. This can be simulated the same way it is in AFF with an instructor describing the malfunction above your head.

2. Have a ground school. An hour or so of instruction time, with someone going over the risks and proper procedures/etiquette of jumping with a camera. At the end you could go over the emergency procedures as described above. If you are successful have it signed off in your logbook that you have completed POV camera ground school.



I am a USPA member and it is not the 200 jump recommendation that I'm concerned about. I don't like the attitude that no matter what happens if a jumper is below the recommendation and has an incident it's automatically related to the camera.

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JWest


I am a USPA member and it is not the 200 jump recommendation that I'm concerned about. I don't like the attitude that no matter what happens if a jumper is below the recommendation and has an incident it's automatically related to the camera.



Last post you said that "What hoped to accomplish with this post is that simply saying wait till 200 is not the best way to do it. Setting guidelines or a progression is a much better option."

Now you say you aren't concerned with the 200 jump recommendation.

Sounds like you're easily distracted from your main line of argument. Maybe you should keep a camera off your head for a while.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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I'm not going to argue with you about jump numbers or when you should or shouldn't start wearing a camera, I am however going to give you an example of why the rules are there.

I recently had a very good friend die because of a camera! He was nowhere near to having 200 jumps, he was closer to 7000. He had a reserve entanglement with his camera. He WAS a full time video guy at a fairly busy dz. Do you think he never thought about, or practiced EP's for getting rid of his helmet. This man of thousands of video jumps who knew exactly what he was doing could not get rid of his helmet, which did have a cutaway system.

So go right ahead jump your camera, shot your crappy video.

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It would be better to take the money you were going to spend on a gopro and spend it on tunnel instead...

I've seen a lot of newbs with cameras do and say stupid things like, "hey, I'll film your opening!"... then almost have a canopy collision... "hey, I'll go out after you and film your dive"... then go low and/or dock hard and take a bunch of people out... saw a guy lose his entire helmet on a formation load because he forgot to buckle it (but at least his gopro was on)...

Spend your early days in the sport trying to learn how to not be terrible... then when you aren't anymore... go shoot awesome video that someone other than you and your mom would actually want to watch. :P
NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

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Context of your post is important. The recommendation is what drives the attitude so they directly correlate. Stating one and not the other still insinuates that both apply.

I don't do well with commenting on death. It sucks you lost a friend and the community lost a member. Your example is important but it is in the minority of camera related incidences. -This being based on the incident reports on this website.- This arises the question was the camera a cause of the initial cut away? Did the helmet cut away malfunction?

You provided the perfect example that even an experienced camera flyer can have issues. That being said it was the camera-possibly helmet cut away- that caused his death. If he could not cut away the helmet then the chances a newer jumper could is also highly unlikely. The difference is with the experienced guy the camera was blamed. With the inexperienced guy the jump number would be blamed as well. When in the end the jump number wouldn't of mattered.

I apologies if I have offended you in anyway. Again I'm not the best at talking around death.

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mattjw916

It would be better to take the money you were going to spend on a gopro and spend it on tunnel instead...

I've seen a lot of newbs with cameras do and say stupid things like, "hey, I'll film your opening!"... then almost have a canopy collision... "hey, I'll go out after you and film your dive"... then go low and/or dock hard and take a bunch of people out... saw a guy lose his entire helmet on a formation load because he forgot to buckle it (but at least his gopro was on)...

Spend your early days in the sport trying to learn how to not be terrible... then when you aren't anymore... go shoot awesome video that someone other than you and your mom would actually want to watch. :P



Good post. I already own multiple gopros due to the various other extreme sports I partake in. In general that would be great advice. Especially with the Hero 4 costing close to $500. You second paragraph is the exact attitude I want newer jumpers to be aware in unsafe. Last, I try every time I jump to get a little less terrible.

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JWest


...I am a USPA member and it is not the 200 jump recommendation that I'm concerned about. I don't like the attitude that no matter what happens if a jumper is below the recommendation and has an incident it's automatically related to the camera.



Well, most of the time, incidents that are reported as "Distracted by camera and (insert bad thing here) happened" are related to the camera.

Most of the stuff in the "Small Camera Incidents" thread are pretty clear that the main, or a significantly contributing cause was "camera fixation."
I'm open to you pointing out which ones are being incorrectly blamed on the camera.

It's actually the lack of experience, combined with the distraction, that create a situation where a simple, low risk situation goes bad.
Or the distraction creates the bad situation (chest strap undone is one example).

And the attitude of "I'm different, I'm special and I don't have to listen to those stupid recommendations" has gotten pretty old.

Visit a few friends in the ICU or go to a few funerals. You will realize that those rules and recommendations are in place for good reasons.

Alternatively, ask Sangi, Dan Kulpa or Ted Nelson.
Only one will answer. And he will freely admit his ignoring the advice was a bad idea.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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I'm bouncing back and forth and probably not being clear enough. When I say directly related to the camera I mean a physical problem. ie. entanglement. The rest of the time I'm referring to the distraction the camera causes. I'm focusing on this because it appears that the distraction is the primary cause.

Blows my mind that people can forget the chest strap. That can and will kill you if left undone.

I could even go into the psychology that if the camera was there from day one it wouldn't be a distraction it would be the norm. But that's a long topic I have no interest in getting into because it is way off topic.

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JWest

I'm bouncing back and forth and probably not being clear enough. When I say directly related to the camera I mean a physical problem. ie. entanglement. The rest of the time I'm referring to the distraction the camera causes. I'm focusing on this because it appears that the distraction is the primary cause.

Blows my mind that people can forget the chest strap. That can and will kill you if left undone.

I could even go into the psychology that if the camera was there from day one it wouldn't be a distraction it would be the norm. But that's a long topic I have no interest in getting into because it is way off topic.



I'm not quite sure what you mean. I don't see much difference between "caused by the camera" or "caused by the distraction of having a camera." In both cases, not having a camera would have eliminated the problem.
And, as pointed out in the Incidents thread, the "incidents caused by distraction" far outnumber the incidents caused by the actual camera.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "Blows my mind." This shit happens. There's an old incident where a camera flyer left the plane without a rig. It was a long time ago, when jumping a camera meant a big camera, separate recording unit and battery pack.
I personally know of an incident where a jumper tried to board a plane without a rig. Someone waiting with him asked "Are you forgetting something?" Whether or not he would have noticed before exit is a valid question, but he freely admitted he was so focused on the camera that it was a possibility.
And while an undone chest strap can kill you, it's not necessarily a "will kill you" thing.
There's a lengthy discussion about the incident where the jumper spent so much time trying to fasten one in freefall that he had an AAD fire. He was ok.

Again, we try to learn from each other's mistakes. Understanding that these rules and recommendations are in place for a reason is part of that.

And there is some validity to the argument "I have hundreds of hours with a GoPro while doing other things, I know how to do it safely," it's not really a good way to go.
There's a standard school of thought that if you are doing something new in skydiving, leave the camera on the ground no matter how much experience you have with it.
For example: A jumper may have hundreds of jumps with a camera. But if he is taking a wingsuit FFC, he leaves it on the ground.
Because it's too much of a distraction risk.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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billvon

>I don't understand how someone sticking a small camera on their helmet for their
>hobby should carry as much consideration and regulation as it does in skydiving.
>We let these people jump out of an airplane for Christ sake. Can we not trust
>people with a camera?

Historically, we can't. Small format cameras have been a factor in a lot of incidents.

Take your case. Let's say that there was a fairly high incidence of injury to SWAT team members when they were wearing cameras, and the reason they gave was routinely "well I wanted to make sure the camera saw the suspect" or "I wanted to make sure it was on" or "I didn't want to damage the lens." In that case a SWAT team might reconsider their decision to put cameras on people.

I do see your point. My question is why can we trust one group of people to ignore the camera while the second group we can't? In theory both groups should be well trained to do what they need to do to save their own lives and should be able to do so even if there is a camera in the vicinity. I can assure you many of the officers I have worked with, whether on the Drug Task Force doing buy busts or on a dynamic entry, were every bit as interested in seeing how cool they were on video when the action was all over. The footage is much cooler to the person who was there in both cases.

Maybe there is something to be said for the idea that part of the problem is the taboo that is placed on the camera. If we didn't make such a big deal out of it would it still cause as many issues? Remember, it wasn't really THAT long ago that you had to meet certain experience levels to jump a square because they were all considered high performance. Now most of the people in our sport have never jumped a round. I guess I wonder when evolution overrides the status quo.
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Someone left without a rig.... that's unbelievable.

Quote

And there is some validity to the argument "I have hundreds of hours with a GoPro while doing other things, I know how to do it safely," it's not really a good way to go.
There's a standard school of thought that if you are doing something new in skydiving, leave the camera on the ground no matter how much experience you have with it.
For example: A jumper may have hundreds of jumps with a camera. But if he is taking a wingsuit FFC, he leaves it on the ground.
Because it's too much of a distraction risk.



This is an excellent point. Also why I will not jump a camera until I am comfortable with my new sized canopy, audible, and full face. Or anything else I decide in-between now and then such as a digital alti.

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mcordell

***>I don't understand how someone sticking a small camera on their helmet for their
>hobby should carry as much consideration and regulation as it does in skydiving.
>We let these people jump out of an airplane for Christ sake. Can we not trust
>people with a camera?

Historically, we can't. Small format cameras have been a factor in a lot of incidents.

Take your case. Let's say that there was a fairly high incidence of injury to SWAT team members when they were wearing cameras, and the reason they gave was routinely "well I wanted to make sure the camera saw the suspect" or "I wanted to make sure it was on" or "I didn't want to damage the lens." In that case a SWAT team might reconsider their decision to put cameras on people.

I do see your point. My question is why can we trust one group of people to ignore the camera while the second group we can't? In theory both groups should be well trained to do what they need to do to save their own lives and should be able to do so even if there is a camera in the vicinity. I can assure you many of the officers I have worked with, whether on the Drug Task Force doing buy busts or on a dynamic entry, were every bit as interested in seeing how cool they were on video when the action was all over. The footage is much cooler to the person who was there in both cases.

Maybe there is something to be said for the idea that part of the problem is the taboo that is placed on the camera. If we didn't make such a big deal out of it would it still cause as many issues? Remember, it wasn't really THAT long ago that you had to meet certain experience levels to jump a square because they were all considered high performance. Now most of the people in our sport have never jumped a round. I guess I wonder when evolution overrides the status quo.

Well, how many of those raids ended up actually being a "Life of Death" situation?
Not how many could have, but actually did?

How many did a little bit of distraction, for a few seconds, end up being the difference between a "clean" raid and a shootout?
Most of those sorts of raids involve numerous officers, overwhelming force and the element of surprise to put every advantage towards the cops (when properly done - improperly done is a Speaker's Corner subject).

If a jumper is distracted on jump run, he has a minute or so to get the camera on, do proper gear checks and be ready to go.
If distracted at pull time, he has seconds (approx 5 sec per thousand feet) to get past that and pull. The time between "should have pulled" and "scared the AAD into firing" will vary, depending on planned deployment altitude.

Cops on raids generally have a lot more time for gear checks. They are backing each other up and if one is distracted by his camera, the others are there to cover him.

Despite the very real dangers and risks, I think there are enough differences in the 2 situations that they aren't really directly comparable. Kind of like the "hundreds of hours with a GoPro on my crotch rocket or skis" doesn't mean it's ok to jump one as an AFF student.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Quote

Despite the very real dangers and risks, I think there are enough differences in the 2 situations that they aren't really directly comparable. Kind of like the "hundreds of hours with a GoPro on my crotch rocket or skis" doesn't mean it's ok to jump one as an AFF student.



I don't want to go down this path but if you had a camera on your helmet from day one. It would be more safe than putting it on at jump 50 for example. As a distraction, not as a snag hazard.

Along with the fact that id rather have five seconds and 1000 feet before I would want fraction of a second it takes to tumble to your death on skis or a snowmobile.

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JWest

Context of your post is important. The recommendation is what drives the attitude so they directly correlate. Stating one and not the other still insinuates that both apply.

I don't do well with commenting on death. It sucks you lost a friend and the community lost a member. Your example is important but it is in the minority of camera related incidences. -This being based on the incident reports on this website.- This arises the question was the camera a cause of the initial cut away? Did the helmet cut away malfunction?

You provided the perfect example that even an experienced camera flyer can have issues. That being said it was the camera-possibly helmet cut away- that caused his death. If he could not cut away the helmet then the chances a newer jumper could is also highly unlikely. The difference is with the experienced guy the camera was blamed. With the inexperienced guy the jump number would be blamed as well. When in the end the jump number wouldn't of mattered.

I apologies if I have offended you in anyway. Again I'm not the best at talking around death.



Wasn't me, wasn't my friend - that was a different poster who shared that story.

But you'd better get used to talking about/around death if you plan to stick around this sport for a while. Most of us get pretty good at dispassionate analysis of the chain of events that leads to incidents. Even when it's our friend. And sometimes the conclusion is what one of my favorite crusty old timers said "You are not now, nor will you ever be good enough not to die in this sport." The best we can all do is stack the odds in our favor. Those odds have been tested by many before you and will be tested by many after you. You can learn from the guys who came before you, or you can provide more sample data for the later oddsmakers. Up to you.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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I replied to both of you in one. I have no problem talking about death. Doing it without effecting someone's emotions is the hard part.

Anyway I'm about to abandon this thread because it has degraded to the point of helping no one.

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JWest

I prefer to see myself on camera because it is the best learning tool.




See, that's self justification again.

It's a shitty learning tool if (as you say) you're planning to wear it and forget it.

It's a fantastic learning tool if other people are filming you, or, if you're dedicating yourself to videography. Learning the distance to be from a 4-way team for your setup is learnt through multiple video jumps , but that's dedicated camera work, and this conversion is all about the 'set and forget' POV stuff.

It's crap footage, and it's not a learning tool so don't bother using them as reasoning.

Lets be honest - you're going to do whatever the hell you want to do.Which is exactly why your argument of 'education' is pointless too.

Jump camera. I don't give a shit.
Once again, this thread becomes a typical camera thread of:

'You're not as good as you think you are, and you don't understand and aren't able to mitigate all the risks' crowd, vs the 'you don't know me. I'm different' crowd.

Like I said in my first post, I knew exactly how this thread would progress without even opening it, so rather than being argumentative for the hell of it, let me ask you an honest question:

'What would it take to make you think that a limit (xxx jumps, or xxxx skills) is necessary for jumping camera?

I would also like to know exactly how many jumps you actually have.

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JWest

Quote

Despite the very real dangers and risks, I think there are enough differences in the 2 situations that they aren't really directly comparable. Kind of like the "hundreds of hours with a GoPro on my crotch rocket or skis" doesn't mean it's ok to jump one as an AFF student.



I don't want to go down this path but if you had a camera on your helmet from day one. It would be more safe than putting it on at jump 50 for example. As a distraction, not as a snag hazard.

Along with the fact that id rather have five seconds and 1000 feet before I would want fraction of a second it takes to tumble to your death on skis or a snowmobile.



I have very little experience with snowmobiles, and I haven't been on skis in a very long time, so I really can't make comparisons.
Are there a lot of accidents that can be linked to camera distraction?

And as far as from jump one, you sort of have a point.
For example, an altimeter can be a distraction. From a "first jump safety" point of view, it would be safer to have an AFF student make their first jump without that distraction. The instructor could signal pull altitude, and that would be that.
But (and it's a huge but), altimeters are considered important and necessary equipment. Students are required to have them, it's in the BSRs.

Cameras are not. While it would help to start from the beginning if a camera was considered necessary on every jump, they aren't.
They're an add-on.

And the distraction potential of a camera is a huge risk for a first time jumper.

As others have noted: you aren't the first one to come on here with this argument.
You'll do what you want. You will more than likely be fine.

Good luck. I hope you don't need it.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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How can you say it's not a learning tool? if someone is wearing a camera and they record you, you can look at that to help learn. AFF programs do it all the time. So does the tunnel.

My decision has actually changed I'll probably wait longer than I would have before this thread existed.

So most important part of this thread. There is no 200 jump recommendation in the SIM! The recommendation is a C licenses. That encompasses so much more than just 200 jumps.

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