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JWest

POV cameras and Jump number.

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***

(that is camera related not skydiving related)




That's YOUR belief. Our experience actually you know, skydiving, suggests something else for 99.9% of people.

That's not a belief. It's a fact. I am claiming something about cameras. Not skydiving. I'll do it again just so you are clear.

Some people are capable of "clicking and forgetting" while using a POV camera.

Quote


Again. I'm done discussing with you. You're a 100 jump wonder who is absolutely convinced they're right. I've seen your sort a dozen times before.



Alright fuck it, here it goes.

I'm not convinced I am right. I know I am right, I didn't need to convince myself of anything. There are people capable of doing what I claimed above.

Since this thread is on it's last leg I am going to inform you on what I have been doing for awhile. When the claim was made. (That people can't have a camera on their head without being distracted by filming) I knew this wasn't true. Who wouldn't recognize that some people are capable of this. I disputed that claim and have continually disputed it. This resulted in a bandwagon against me claiming that "I don't know, what I don't know." I continued to make my claim simply to see if people would continually fight me because jumping a camera under 200 jumps is against their views. They did. Even in one of your posts you acknowledged that 99.9% of people cannot do what I claimed. That mean that .1% can do what I claimed making my statement correct and the statement I was disputing incorrect. Even you continue to challenge me. Now I wasn't surprised at this reaction, hive mind is a real thing. Something that I assume most everyone missed is that I'm not applying my claim to only new jumpers or skydivers. I said 'generally' many many times. I even brought up speaking in absolutes and how it is generally not a good idea. I'm a logical and technical thinker. I found a minor technicality and rolled with it as long as possible. I wanted to see how people reacted and I honestly can't believe the mods didn't delete this thread already. That was never the intended purpose of this thread. Just happened to be where it ended up.

For the finale, my view on POV cameras directly related to the activity of skydiving.

A POV camera not only poses a physical risk it also poses a mental one. DSE maintains and excellent thread containing many camera related 'incidences' for us to learn from. It can be found here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3894693 As well as that thread there is an excellent video from Norm Kent about snag hazard involved with cameras. That can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sn2BCmnDUUM. Brian Germain has a video about how to add a quick release to fastex buckles, that can be found here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuqJV3eRH0g All of those sources provide information on to help minimize some hazards related to cameras.

Jumping a camera contains a mental risk. The camera is a distraction. Whether it be from, turing it on, avoiding the door on climb out, or filming something instead of focusing on the jump. While it may be possible for some to totally ignore the cameras presence this is not advisable. One should be consciously aware that there is a potential snag hazard on their head and be proficient in their emergency procedures related to it.

Along with the risks involved, jumping a camera has social stigma that surrounds it if you jump a camera before the recommended of a C-License and/or use a standard mount. Experienced jumpers and experienced camera flyers may think that you are reckless, irresponsible, or unsafe. Because skydiving is a small community that may follow you around.

When someone thinks they are ready to jump a camera they should talk to the experienced jumpers/camera flyers at their drop zone -regardless of their jump number- looking for the guidance/advice. They should also go online to find all the potential hazards and ways to minimize them. If they think that they are ready and so do the people at their DZ then jump a damn camera.

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JWest



"If I do a 720 from 2k+ ish it normally puts me right about 1000 feet. Then I ENTER MY LANDING PATTERN at 900 feet. But a 720 is FUN and right at the edge of my 1 arm strength so I'll just stick with that."



JWest - It is NOT SAFE to be doing a 720 from 2k+ ish ft to enter "your landing pattern" at 900ft. Doesn't sound much like a landing pattern to me. Please stop doing this. A 720 in the landing pattern will not be "fun" at all IF and WHEN you collide with another jumper. Your attitude scares me JWest and I know there are MANY others. This is DEADLY serious business and not a debate class. I'm tired of losing friends and don't really care what your "reasoned" answer is on this topic or anything else relating to skydiving. You should NOT be giving advise to ANYONE.

Stop Turning

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JWest

****** ...I enjoy front riser turns but I normally do them around 2k. 720 Is as much as I'll do because I'll hit about 65 MPH (according to my Viso II) and that close enough to cypress firing speed.



And why would that be a problem?

Or is that something else that you "don't know that you don't know"?

Is that a real question(s)?

People keep saying "don't know what you don't know" Have you ever thought about how ridiculous that statement is? It's literally impossible to know about everything. Since it is impossible to know everything and people in general are aware that they do not know about everything how can one claim that someone isn't aware that they don't know something? It's why people learn. It's like saying that people aren't aware there is something to learn about. Which again is a ridiculous statement.

But I'm curious, what is it exactly that you don't think I have ever considered/hear of/read about/experienced/discussed that is directly related to my post?

You don't know what you don't know:
It doesn't imply you don't know everything but more likely you think you know enough to be OK, when in fact you aren't even experienced to know the basic stuff yet, and think you do!

Another fact after reading all of your posts is that you are not aware of the fact that you don't know. Something that has been repeated to you over and over.

The real difference between you and the one that do know he doesn't know is that he doesn't know, but is aware of that fact and is prepared to take advice from someone with far superior experience in the subject, instead of constantly slamming the head into the wall without seemingly noticing it (making it even more ridiculous to those that do).

I can see more reasons then the mere fact you would trigger your AAD for not doing 720 hooks above the DZ before entering the landing pattern. Other skydivers gathering at the same spot is one of many...

I'm not even going to mention anything about the camera and jump numbers philosophy, it's already been repeated enough times to make sense to most people by now and in all other topics on DZ.com about camera requirements.

Edit: @ds8221 damn, you beat me to it! :P

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Who wouldn't recognize that some people are capable of this. I disputed that claim and have continually disputed it. This resulted in a bandwagon against me claiming that "I don't know, what I don't know." I continued to make my claim simply to see if people would continually fight me because jumping a camera under 200 jumps is against their views. They did. Even in one of your posts you acknowledged that 99.9% of people cannot do what I claimed. That mean that .1% can do what I claimed making my statement correct and the statement I was disputing incorrect. Even you continue to challenge me. Now I wasn't surprised at this reaction, hive mind is a real thing. Something that I assume most everyone missed is that I'm not applying my claim to only new jumpers or skydivers. I said 'generally' many many times. I even brought up speaking in absolutes and how it is generally not a good idea. I'm a logical and technical thinker. I found a minor technicality and rolled with it as long as possible. I wanted to see how people reacted and I honestly can't believe the mods didn't delete this thread already. That was never the intended purpose of this thread. Just happened to be where it ended up.



If the only purpose of this thread is to argue that there exists at least one person in the world who may be able to forget the camera after they turn it on, I don't think anyone would seriously disagree with that. What they disagree with is that: (a) the general rule should change for that one person; (b) that person is qualified to self-identify; or (c) you are likely that person.

Now, you may say that you never made any of those claims --- I haven't followed this thread carefully enough to say otherwise. But the reaction you got I think was a result of two things:

(1) the great majority of people who made the claims you're making (certainly everyone I can remember), made them either to: (a) advocate for lowering the C-license rule; or (b) claim that they were able to put a camera on their head and not let it distract them; and

(2) there is little utility to the truth of your statement. I'm sure you would agree that we should not let students jump Velocities. Why? Because students aren't experienced enough to do so. I could point out that you can't categorically say that 100% of students are unable to handle a Velocity, and I'd bet quite a lot that there is at least one student in the world who could, but, so what? What utility does that true statement of exception have? None. So, if I were to make such a statement, most would assume that I was advocating a change in the rules, or, alternatively, that I should be allowed to do something I wasn't currently being allowed to do. Because why else would I make that statement?

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ds8221

***

"If I do a 720 from 2k+ ish it normally puts me right about 1000 feet. Then I ENTER MY LANDING PATTERN at 900 feet. But a 720 is FUN and right at the edge of my 1 arm strength so I'll just stick with that."



JWest - It is NOT SAFE to be doing a 720 from 2k+ ish ft to enter "your landing pattern" at 900ft. Doesn't sound much like a landing pattern to me. Please stop doing this. A 720 in the landing pattern will not be "fun" at all IF and WHEN you collide with another jumper. Your attitude scares me JWest and I know there are MANY others. This is DEADLY serious business and not a debate class. I'm tired of losing friends and don't really care what your "reasoned" answer is on this topic or anything else relating to skydiving. You should NOT be giving advise to ANYONE.

Stop Turning

I was trying to keep my post short. I will explain. C-182 max load five people. Two landing areas. I only do this when I am the only person landing in the "student" landing area and I have already counted the 4 other canopies that are landing in the 'experienced' landing area. If I can't find all 4 I would not do this. The landing areas are separated by a significant distance. If I spiral down I line it up so I get spit out right into my down wind leg. I would never do this if there was someone else landing in that area with me or I was at a different drop zone. That would be blatantly unsafe and irresponsible. I covered a two out scenario, and possible collisions. Besides getting spun up (PD Specter, probably won't happen) I can't think of any other issues with it. I have explained myself, if you still think that it is unsafe please inform me what I missed. If you have any questions ask. Try not to jump to a conclusion, I don't do anything without researching it first.
dorbie

*** DSE maintains and excellent thread containing many camera related 'incidences' for us to learn from.....



I love the way you cite the work of a guy who has told you that you are an incident waiting to happen.

His personal beliefs about me do not affect the helpfulness/content of his incident thread.

ghost47

Quote

Who wouldn't recognize that some people are capable of this. I disputed that claim and have continually disputed it. This resulted in a bandwagon against me claiming that "I don't know, what I don't know." I continued to make my claim simply to see if people would continually fight me because jumping a camera under 200 jumps is against their views. They did. Even in one of your posts you acknowledged that 99.9% of people cannot do what I claimed. That mean that .1% can do what I claimed making my statement correct and the statement I was disputing incorrect. Even you continue to challenge me. Now I wasn't surprised at this reaction, hive mind is a real thing. Something that I assume most everyone missed is that I'm not applying my claim to only new jumpers or skydivers. I said 'generally' many many times. I even brought up speaking in absolutes and how it is generally not a good idea. I'm a logical and technical thinker. I found a minor technicality and rolled with it as long as possible. I wanted to see how people reacted and I honestly can't believe the mods didn't delete this thread already. That was never the intended purpose of this thread. Just happened to be where it ended up.



My replies to you are in bold.

If the only purpose of this thread That was not the original purpose, I was curious about the reasons behind the mentality towards low time jumpers with camera, Only about the last 1/4 was about the rest of your sentence. is to argue that there exists at least one person in the world who may be able to forget the camera after they turn it on, I don't think anyone would seriously disagree with that. Exactly, that is why I kept saying it over and over. I wanted to see if people would acknowledge that. Most did not. What they disagree with is that: (a) the general rule shouldn't change for that one person Agreed; (b) that person is qualified to self-identifyAgreed; or (c) you are likely that person. Agreed

Now, you may say that you never made any of those claims --- I haven't followed this thread carefully enough to say otherwise. I tried to choose my words carefully but there is a good chance I slipped up. I like numbers not letters But the reaction you got I think was a result of two things:

(1) the great majority of people who made the claims you're making (certainly everyone I can remember), made them either to: (a) advocate for lowering the C-license rule Recomendation, I don't think it should be lowered. It's a solid goal for some people to shoot for. It also encompasses more than just chucking yourself out of a plane. I don't like seeing jumpers attacked over it. Chances are that their DZ is aware of it and has given them permission/talked about it. (Might be different on big DZ but that is not how it is at mine); or (b) claim that they were able to put a camera on their head and not let it distract them I have no comment because I do not know If I can do this in skydiving as I do with other activities.; and

(2) there is little utility to the truth of your statement. Agreed, besides the social aspect I became interested in. I'm sure you would agree that we should not let students jump Velocities. YeP. Why? Because students aren't experienced enough to do so. I could point out that you can't categorically say that 100% of students are unable to handle a Velocity, and I'd bet quite a lot that there is at least one student in the world who could, but, so what? What utility does that true statement of exception have? None. Agreed So, if I were to make such a statement, most would assume that I was advocating a change in the rules I began to count on this assumption after it was recognized, or, alternatively, that I should be allowed to do something I wasn't currently being allowed to do. Because why else would I make that statement? It became a social observation, I wanted to see how people replied and their reasoning behind it, if there were willing to acknowledge something that went against the hive mind.

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JWest

That's not a belief. It's a fact. I am claiming something about cameras. Not skydiving. I'll do it again just so you are clear.

Some people are capable of "clicking and forgetting" while using a POV camera.

and thos people will hit the plane door or wing. Dings in a Porter wing are expensive, or Noisy. In our case (at my DZ), VERY Noisy. As Noisy as the pilot/owner can be.

If you don't hit the wing/door/roof of the plane, then you are NOT forgetting about your camera.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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This thread is painful to watch :S.

90% of videos of experienced jumpers are crap.

100% of videos of inexperienced jumpers are crap.

Arguing so 0.01% of jumpers without 200 jumps can get crap videos is pointless.

99.9% of inexperienced jumpers arguing about the 200 jump limit for flying a camera are lame skydivers, even if their whuffo friends say otherwise.

100% of jumpers making 720s (edit: toggle-whipping 720s) are lame skydivers, with or without camera.

JWest, I have the feeling that you are a nice guy. But you are being quite stubborn, arguing over something pointless. Stop wasting your time, talk less, listen more and have some fun jumping out of airplanes.

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JWest

******

"If I do a 720 from 2k+ ish it normally puts me right about 1000 feet. Then I ENTER MY LANDING PATTERN at 900 feet. But a 720 is FUN and right at the edge of my 1 arm strength so I'll just stick with that."



JWest - It is NOT SAFE to be doing a 720 from 2k+ ish ft to enter "your landing pattern" at 900ft. Doesn't sound much like a landing pattern to me. Please stop doing this. A 720 in the landing pattern will not be "fun" at all IF and WHEN you collide with another jumper. Your attitude scares me JWest and I know there are MANY others. This is DEADLY serious business and not a debate class. I'm tired of losing friends and don't really care what your "reasoned" answer is on this topic or anything else relating to skydiving. You should NOT be giving advise to ANYONE.

Stop Turning

I was trying to keep my post short. I will explain. C-182 max load five people. Two landing areas. I only do this when I am the only person landing in the "student" landing area and I have already counted the 4 other canopies that are landing in the 'experienced' landing area. If I can't find all 4 I would not do this. The landing areas are separated by a significant distance. If I spiral down I line it up so I get spit out right into my down wind leg. I would never do this if there was someone else landing in that area with me or I was at a different drop zone. That would be blatantly unsafe and irresponsible. I covered a two out scenario, and possible collisions. Besides getting spun up (PD Specter, probably won't happen) I can't think of any other issues with it. I have explained myself, if you still think that it is unsafe please inform me what I missed. If you have any questions ask. Try not to jump to a conclusion, I don't do anything without researching it first.
dorbie

*** DSE maintains and excellent thread containing many camera related 'incidences' for us to learn from.....



I love the way you cite the work of a guy who has told you that you are an incident waiting to happen.

His personal beliefs about me do not affect the helpfulness/content of his incident thread.

ghost47

Quote

Who wouldn't recognize that some people are capable of this. I disputed that claim and have continually disputed it. This resulted in a bandwagon against me claiming that "I don't know, what I don't know." I continued to make my claim simply to see if people would continually fight me because jumping a camera under 200 jumps is against their views. They did. Even in one of your posts you acknowledged that 99.9% of people cannot do what I claimed. That mean that .1% can do what I claimed making my statement correct and the statement I was disputing incorrect. Even you continue to challenge me. Now I wasn't surprised at this reaction, hive mind is a real thing. Something that I assume most everyone missed is that I'm not applying my claim to only new jumpers or skydivers. I said 'generally' many many times. I even brought up speaking in absolutes and how it is generally not a good idea. I'm a logical and technical thinker. I found a minor technicality and rolled with it as long as possible. I wanted to see how people reacted and I honestly can't believe the mods didn't delete this thread already. That was never the intended purpose of this thread. Just happened to be where it ended up.



My replies to you are in bold.

If the only purpose of this thread That was not the original purpose, I was curious about the reasons behind the mentality towards low time jumpers with camera, Only about the last 1/4 was about the rest of your sentence. is to argue that there exists at least one person in the world who may be able to forget the camera after they turn it on, I don't think anyone would seriously disagree with that. Exactly, that is why I kept saying it over and over. I wanted to see if people would acknowledge that. Most did not. What they disagree with is that: (a) the general rule shouldn't change for that one person Agreed; (b) that person is qualified to self-identifyAgreed; or (c) you are likely that person. Agreed

Now, you may say that you never made any of those claims --- I haven't followed this thread carefully enough to say otherwise. But the reaction you got I think was a result of two things:

(1) the great majority of people who made the claims you're making (certainly everyone I can remember), made them either to: (a) advocate for lowering the C-license rule Recomendation, I don't think it should be lowered. It's a solid goal for some people to shoot for. It also encompasses more than just chucking yourself out of a plane. I just don't like seeing jumpers attracted over it. Chances are that their DZ is aware of it and has given them permission/talked about it. (Might be different on big DZ but that is not how it is at mine); or (b) claim that they were able to put a camera on their head and not let it distract them I have no comment because I do not know If I can do this in skydiving as I do with other activities.; and

(2) there is little utility to the truth of your statement. Agreed, besides the social aspect I became interested in. I'm sure you would agree that we should not let students jump Velocities. YeP. Why? Because students aren't experienced enough to do so. I could point out that you can't categorically say that 100% of students are unable to handle a Velocity, and I'd bet quite a lot that there is at least one student in the world who could, but, so what? What utility does that true statement of exception have? None. So, if I were to make such a statement, most would assume that I was advocating a change in the rules, or, alternatively, that I should be allowed to do something I wasn't currently being allowed to do. Because why else would I make that statement? It became a social experiment, I wanted to see how people replied and their reasoning behind it.



JWest - You land in the STUDENT LANDING AREA! OMG! LOL! That's certainly where you BELONG! You are a so called expert on skydiving videography but still land with the students? Hilarious! Dude stop with the advise and debate club. I am being blunt but this needs to end. Ignore DSE or the rest of us that have been around FAR longer and know way more than you at your own peril. Once again, I don't really care what your "reasoned" inexperienced answer is on anything relating to skydiving. You should NOT be giving advise or instruction to ANYONE. Are you deaf?

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JWest


****** DSE maintains and excellent thread containing many camera related 'incidences' for us to learn from.....



I love the way you cite the work of a guy who has told you that you are an incident waiting to happen.

His personal beliefs about me do not affect the helpfulness/content of his incident thread.


Reading that thread and in particular the vast number of distraction incidents in it does not mean squat unless it affects your decision making for the better. You show no indication of that. On the contrary it seems that it has imbued you with a delusional sense of knowledge. That is remarkable since an easily discernible dominant theme in DSE's incidents list is newbies with many of the views you have espoused here getting bitten.

This is so glaringly discordant that I'm beginning to suspect that your deficit of self-perception and introspection might be clinical.

You think you can throw internet posts at this problem when in fact your primary defense is to make good decisions on the ground before you skydive. Your word salad transmitting your rationalizations at others who know better won't affect anything.

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ds8221



JWest - You land in the STUDENT LANDING AREA! OMG! LOL! That's certainly where you BELONG! You are a so called expert on skydiving videography but still land with the students? Hilarious! Dude stop with the advise and debate club. I am being blunt but this needs to end. Ignore DSE or the rest of us that have been around FAR longer and know way more than you at your own peril. Once again, I don't really care what your "reasoned" inexperienced answer is on anything relating to skydiving. You should NOT be giving advise or instruction to ANYONE. Are you deaf?



It's the landing area for anyone with less than a C-license. What it's called really doesn't matter. You should care, you said I was unsafe, you should care about people that are unsafe. I gave you the details and asked you -an experienced jumper- a question. I am inexperienced but I am not uninformed. So I ask you again,what about my riser turn are unsafe? Or are you so stuck in discrediting me you are incapable of answering that question?


dorbie

***
****** DSE maintains and excellent thread containing many camera related 'incidences' for us to learn from.....



I love the way you cite the work of a guy who has told you that you are an incident waiting to happen.

His personal beliefs about me do not affect the helpfulness/content of his incident thread.


Reading that thread and in particular the vast number of distraction incidents in it does not mean squat unless it affects your decision making for the better. You show no indication of that. On the contrary it seems that it has imbued you with a delusional sense of knowledge. That is remarkable since an easily discernible dominant theme in DSE's incidents list is newbies with many of the views you have espoused here getting bitten.

This is so glaringly discordant that I'm beginning to suspect that your deficit of self-perception and introspection might be clinical.

You think you can throw internet posts at this problem when in fact your primary defense is to make good decisions on the ground before you skydive. Your word salad transmitting your rationalizations at others who know better won't affect anything.

You are wrong on your analysis of me. I've offered to answer question so people have actual information so base there opinion of me on. No one has taken the opportunity. You may have missed the who post where I explained how I was purposefully being combative to observe people reactions. Now that I explained it I can no longer do it. So I say it again. Instead of basin you judgment of me on intentionally misrepresenting comments (by me) why don't you ask me some questions so you have actual information.

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JWest

I am inexperienced but I am not uninformed. So I ask you again,what about my riser turn are unsafe? Or are you so stuck in discrediting me you are incapable of answering that question?



There is only one person discrediting you and it's not him. How do you know you're not uninformed? You're demanding an explanation and you have a track record of not receiving explanations well. You seem to think that every explanation should be responded to with your opinion. "720" spiraling down to 1k ready to start your downwind might be considered unsafe because it risks a low altitude canopy collision with others as you turn into trafficked airspace that you visually cannot clear. I doubt anyone is interested in debating this with you and enduring several hundred more posts of nonsense. For once just say "OK I'll stop", shut up and move on. Spare everyone the spectacle and yourself the embarrassment and start to restore your reputation.

As for the rest, well I sincerely hope I'm wrong. I'm not interested in your Q&A. I've read quite a lot of what you've written. You're obviously curious and I remember being new to the sport and coming on here and making an arse of myself too.

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JWest

***

JWest - You land in the STUDENT LANDING AREA! OMG! LOL! That's certainly where you BELONG! You are a so called expert on skydiving videography but still land with the students? Hilarious! Dude stop with the advise and debate club. I am being blunt but this needs to end. Ignore DSE or the rest of us that have been around FAR longer and know way more than you at your own peril. Once again, I don't really care what your "reasoned" inexperienced answer is on anything relating to skydiving. You should NOT be giving advise or instruction to ANYONE. Are you deaf?



It's the landing area for anyone with less than a C-license. What it's called really doesn't matter. You should care, you said I was unsafe, you should care about people that are unsafe. I gave you the details and asked you -an experienced jumper- a question. I am inexperienced but I am not uninformed. So I ask you again,what about my riser turn are unsafe? Or are you so stuck in discrediting me you are incapable of answering that question?


dorbie

***
****** DSE maintains and excellent thread containing many camera related 'incidences' for us to learn from.....



I love the way you cite the work of a guy who has told you that you are an incident waiting to happen.

His personal beliefs about me do not affect the helpfulness/content of his incident thread.


Reading that thread and in particular the vast number of distraction incidents in it does not mean squat unless it affects your decision making for the better. You show no indication of that. On the contrary it seems that it has imbued you with a delusional sense of knowledge. That is remarkable since an easily discernible dominant theme in DSE's incidents list is newbies with many of the views you have espoused here getting bitten.

This is so glaringly discordant that I'm beginning to suspect that your deficit of self-perception and introspection might be clinical.

You think you can throw internet posts at this problem when in fact your primary defense is to make good decisions on the ground before you skydive. Your word salad transmitting your rationalizations at others who know better won't affect anything.

You are wrong on your analysis of me. I've offered to answer question so people have actual information so base there opinion of me on. No one has taken the opportunity. You may have missed the who post where I explained how I was purposefully being combative to observe people reactions. Now that I explained it I can no longer do it. So I say it again. Instead of basin you judgment of me on intentionally misrepresenting comments (by me) why don't you ask me some questions so you have actual information.

Nice try troll, I stand by my prior posts. I responded to the information provided by you. I refuse to continue to engage someone who is tone deaf. You are not qualified to instruct or advise anyone about skydiving videography and you do not address this key fact because it is true. Good luck JWest, you are surely going to need it. Have fun landing with the students, maybe you will learn something from them? I do not care.

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Dorbie- I am discussing a specific topic with ds8221. But if you want in on it be my guest. I know I am informed about it because I have done my research. ""720" spiraling down to 1k ready to start your downwind might be considered unsafe because it risks a low altitude canopy collision with others as you turn into trafficked airspace that you visually cannot clear." I completely agree. That is why as I explained previously that I only do it when I am the only one landing in that particular area and I have located the other 4 canopies landing in the other area. Having that information do you still consider spiraling down to be unsafe for the reasons you stated?

----------------------------------------------------

DS8221- You responded to the information I initially gave to everyone. You said I was unsafe, I provided you with the rest of the pertinent information. I asked the question whether or not you still see it as unsafe knowing all the information. You refuse to answer. If you still have a reason to believe that it is unsafe I would expect you to tell me.

I am not qualified to give advice strictly about skydiving videography. That is true and I agree with it.

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JWest

Dorbie- I am discussing a specific topic with ds8221. But if you want in on it be my guest.



I don't need your permission, this is an open forum. If you want to take it to PMs you have that option.

I now see your earlier reply, I'm not sure I trust it as anything but post revelation ass covering, but at least you agree it is unsafe. Since you seem to need it spelled out, I'd say he's mocking your credibility gap in yet another area where you're waxing lyrical in a safety & training forum.

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dorbie

***Dorbie- I am discussing a specific topic with ds8221. But if you want in on it be my guest.



I don't need your permission, this is an open forum. If you want to take it to PMs you have that option.

I now see your earlier reply, I'm not sure I trust it as anything but post revelation ass covering, but at least you agree it is unsafe. Since you seem to need it spelled out, I'd say he's mocking your credibility gap in yet another area where you're waxing lyrical in a safety & training forum.

Fair enough. A person would be unbelievably ignorant if they didn't recognize that spiraling into traffic would be unsafe. Just this year there has been multiple fatalities due to canopy collisions. I don't know what you think my revelation might have been. I knew long before I started this thread that canopy traffic, AAD fires, and being spun up were some of the risks while under canopy. If a less experienced jumper than myself asked what some risks under canopy were I think it would be completely appropriate for me to inform them of the ones I know about. I pack at my DZ and a couple weekends ago I was showing someone how to pack who had 300 something jumps but had been using a packer. Because I am inexperienced (low jump number) does that mean that it was inappropriate for me to pass on the information I know to another person? I think it was appropriate. Those are just two examples of how an inexperienced (low jump number) person can give advice and it IMHO be appropriate.

If I didn't make it clear in my really long post where I explained everything, I was not arguing about skydiving against people who have more skydiving and skydiving videography experience/ knowledge than me. The only thing I have been doing for a while now is arguing that "It is possible for a person to "click and forget" while using a pov camera." I did not say a skydiver, I simply said a person. Yes we are on a skydiving form, and yes I knew people would make that assumption, and yes I was purposefully misleading in my word choice for those exact reasons. I was fully aware of what I was doing. I knew it was being overlooked by the majority of commenters. Some people caught on and acknowledged it including you.

I don't know shit about actually jumping a camera aside from the basics like it being a snag hazard, and that filming things is less important that staying focused on the jump. Unless of course you are dedicated video. I learned that form the links I provided earlier, people at my dz, and reading posts on this form. I do know that I am capable of 'clicking and forgetting' Or 'passive filming' (I think that's a better term, both mean the same thing) because I have been doing it for years in other sports. That does not mean that I can/cannot do the same thing in skydiving. I won't know until I do it. It is a possibility? Yes. Is it likely? No, according to people who actually know what that are talking about directly related to skydiving.

I am ok with being considered naive because of the things I said while doing the above. I am not ok with being called unsafe and I will not tolerate baseless claims that I am.

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C-182 max load five people. Two landing areas. I only do this when I am the only person landing in the "student" landing area and I have already counted the 4 other canopies that are landing in the 'experienced' landing area.



I have to ask about this. I jump at 182 dzs and it's been my experience the max load of 5 people is right. Is one of those 4 canopies you are counting round (the pilot)? Are there DZs really cramming 6 people into a C-182? Is that allowed and where do people buckle in? I was under the impression they were all set up for 4 plus the pilot.
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If you had not picked up on it yet, most of those older/more experienced people are trying to suggest that, despite your self analysis, you may not be safe doing the things you are doing.

The reason some of them are so emphatic is that they've seen your attitude before in others that have come forward with a high-self image only to bury them shortly there after.

They've also buried the highly skilled and cautious, simply because this sport forgives little and will have surprises for all of us.

Worse, they have upon occasion buried others that have been killed BY individuals who had previously been told they were not as proficient as they had assessed themselves.

You say that you are at a small Cessna DZ. I suggest continue to count carefully the canopies in the air and that you stay where you are. The attitude would be unwelcome most other places. And just in case the vast majority of experienced jumpers are right, we'd rather not be the one's that have to write up your incident report.

Peace.

JW
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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>I would say that is exists for the majority/average jumper.

Like I said, that belief is foolish.

>By informing new jumpers that the things you listed can be dangerous some are able
>to prevent themselves from making to same mistake.

Agreed. This thread, as long and pointless as it is, helps accomplish that.

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billvon

>I would say that is exists for the majority/average jumper.

Like I said, that belief is foolish.



That's is me agreeing with you. You don't do context well.

"During the skydive they think "hey this will be a cool shot." Under canopy they look around to give a cool panorama. They look at their altimeter to "show the camera" what altitude they are at. When they are in the pattern and they see something interesting they point their head at it. It's happened to me, and it has happened to a very large number of other people. Usually they get away with it. Sometimes they don't."

I agree those things can/have/will happen.

------------------------

Mcordell- You can fit 5 jumpers in a 182 but it is just pretty cramped and takes a little longer to get to altitude. That is the max load, we normally do 4 jumper loads. There are 6 seat belts.

----------------

fcajump - I picked up on that a long while ago. That is why I research and ask questions to the experienced guys at my DZ before I try anything new.

Something that I think people still haven't picked up on since my long post:

When this thread became useless awhile ago I intentionally and thoughtfully argued a point that could not be incorrect do to semantics and technicalities. I knew this point would go against the grain of the general mentality in this thread. I continued to make that point and observed that few people considered the wording of what I was saying. Instead they responded based off of there opinions on inexperienced jumpers. There was no utility to it, it was simply a way for me to observe the mindset in this thread. Specifically if people were just adopting the current attitude, or if they were using critical thinking to understand it for themselves. Have you considered that since I was intentionally commenting to provoke an expected response that just maybe my attitude was misrepresented? I can assure you my skydiving attitude is much different than the one represented in this thread.

The gig is up, but it was an interesting and entertaining ride.

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JWest

it was simply a way for me to observe the mindset in this thread. Specifically if people were just adopting the current attitude



Ah, so you're evaluating other people's attitudes. Cool.

JWest

Have you considered that since I was intentionally commenting to provoke an expected response that just maybe my attitude was misrepresented? I can assure you my skydiving attitude is much different than the one represented in this thread.



And you're also letting us all know that our perception of your attitude is probably wrong.

So, you evaluate the attitudes of the rest of us and you're right.
The rest of us judge your attitude and we're wrong.

It sounds like you're in the 0.1% in attitude judging, in addition to skydiving. Btw, 0.1% == mad skillz. How can any of us argue with you?

JWest

There was no utility to it, it was simply a way for me to observe the mindset in this thread.



There is only one mindset in this thread you need to by observing much more carefully, and you haven't even come close. It matters not what we ask you or what you ask us. What matters is when you close your mouth and ask yourself why every single skydiver in this thread with thousands of jumps is agreeing on something, and you answer that question with the fact that maybe their experience contains a level of wisdom that all your Google searches and logic games cannot encompass. Or, maybe they're all just crazy internet dicks who don't understand sound logic. Your choice.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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When one of my cousins was five, she went to the public ladies room alone for the first time (this was in the 50's when that wasn't considered dangerous :S). About 10 minutes after she came back, her mother mentioned how quickly everyone was coming back out of the ladies' room. "I crawled under all the doors and locked them -teeheehee-".

A five year old can be forgiven for enjoying spinning people up. It's a little juvenile to imply that your masterful plan and subtle wording were just to spin us up after you determined that not everyone agrees with you.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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JWest

The only thing I have been doing for a while now is arguing that "It is possible for a person to "click and forget" while using a pov camera." I did not say a skydiver, I simply said a person. Yes we are on a skydiving form, and yes I knew people would make that assumption, and yes I was purposefully misleading in my word choice for those exact reasons. I was fully aware of what I was doing.



In this thread and the Instructor's one, you keep deliberately making statements that are incredibly semantic, and remove the context of Skydiving. Followed by gems like:

JWest

That's is me agreeing with you. You don't do context well.



Pick a side, you don't get to actively remove context and then bitch when people do the same.

JWest

I do know that I am capable of 'clicking and forgetting' Or 'passive filming' (I think that's a better term, both mean the same thing) because I have been doing it for years in other sports. That does not mean that I can/cannot do the same thing in skydiving.



If you can, that would be dumb, dumb, DUMB. What other sports have you done this in? You mentioned kayaking at one point didn't you? If you actively forget about the GoPro on a jump, you forget about the snag hazard. That goes for your lines, your jump-buddies handles etc. Hitting it on the door and having your attention away from your exit. If you forget it's there, you are forgetting about the actual risk posed by the physical presence of the object and not taking precautions against that.

Your argument has been that a person could theoretically turn on and forget. You are absolutely 100% correct. My argument is that forgetting about your camera on a jump is - in my noob opinion - more dangerous than awareness.

Serious question (no-one seems to be taking you up on this option): Does the GoPro setup you use in any of your other activities have a non-freak chance of killing you or someone else? Please give details either way.

Side Note:

Quote

I am not qualified to give advice strictly about skydiving videography. That is true and I agree with it.



Based on your response in the other forum, I don't believe you're qualified to give advice about videography full stop. The information you gave was a copy-paste from the manual, was 100% accurate as a description of a feature, and 100% useless for the practical usage being discussed.
You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

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