diablopilot 2 #76 June 30, 2009 Yep.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #77 June 30, 2009 QuoteYep. And? Is it considered a factor or is what we can't see (the weight of jumpers jamming in behind the ones in the door) that is believed to have the most impact on these stalls?Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #78 July 1, 2009 According to one of the jumpers, the line-up was as follows - QuoteIncluding video, we had five outside. The chunk being launched was a four-way base chunk with two outside and two inside, plus front float (me) and rear float, both of whom were zippers. I believe that the other six folks were not lined up at the door and instead stayed towards the front of the plane, but there might have been one more diver in the back. So you're looking at five outside, plus three inside the door, with the remainder inside up-plane. So take the 8 jumpers in the rear of the aircraft, and figure they're good for 1500lbs. What are the numbers on the Pac? Can you hang 1500lbs in the way back? In terms of blanketing the airflow to the tail, I'm sure that extending out to full arms length isn't helping things at all. That's the other downside to a low tail plane, is that anything you can hit, you can disrupt the airflow over while hanging around outside the door. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ufk22 32 #79 July 1, 2009 Watching the video, it appears that the video-man was also leaning out, right hand on the rail.This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #80 July 1, 2009 Quote have the outside folks lean out to make room for the two on the inside who were launching with the chunk - allowing them to get shoulders out and allow for a clean exit. I don't think that's needed for only two divers. But for 3, you have to get one persons shoulders out completely, even for smaller divers. yup, at least the rear inside person has to so that one can practice a chunk exit like on an otter design=smaller door, low horizontal stabilizer I wonder if any experienced skydivers at all were asked to comment during the development of a plane advertised as "designed for skydiving" ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #81 July 1, 2009 QuoteI wonder if any experienced skydivers at all were asked to comment during the development of a plane advertised as "designed for skydiving"once again, do you people realize for which kind of skydiving it was designed ?scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #82 July 1, 2009 QuoteQuoteI wonder if any experienced skydivers at all were asked to comment during the development of a plane advertised as "designed for skydiving"once again, do you people realize for which kind of skydiving it was designed ? It was designed for the flight pattern and frequent cycling. As for which kind of skydiving? I'd say it's most compatible in this order: 1 - getting a lot of tandems out during a day - effective 2 - cycling AFF jumps - effective 3 - 4 ways or smaller - reasonable (exits for Freeflying might need to be adjusted to avoid striking the elevators - small door and offset steps will affect 4way RW exits too 4 - medium ways (5w - 15) - not effective, doable, but not a good match 5 - CrW and other uses of hop and pops - meh 6 - wing suits - scary exits if you're new at it - not compatible 7 - bigger ways (16+, etc) - not a match How'd I do? Exit: for all the commentary, I LIKE this plane. I just think people need to be very aware of the wing and horizontal stabilizer location, and also about weight disty issues of course ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #83 July 2, 2009 QuoteQuoteI wonder if any experienced skydivers at all were asked to comment during the development of a plane advertised as "designed for skydiving"once again, do you people realize for which kind of skydiving it was designed ? Hey, given the plane's limitations (as a development of an earlier design rather than a clean-sheet design), you can expect people to put down the simplistic marketing claims. You might as well have a doorway in a house that keeps on being advertised as "designed for people's convenience". But it is only 5'9" / 1.75 m high, and taller people are banging their head on it and cursing. I don't think the "convenience" issue goes away just because someone says, "Don't you realize what kind of people the door was made for?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,380 #84 July 2, 2009 >I wonder if any experienced skydivers at all were asked to comment during the >development of a plane advertised as "designed for skydiving" Actually, from what I heard they were. The parent plane of the PAC 750 - the Cresco - was used a lot in places like Australia for skydiving, and Pacific Aerospace talked to several skydiving operators who used them when designing the new plane. It's not specifically built for skydiving alone, of course; we're not a big enough market. Freight, cropdusting and aerial photography are bigger markets, and its used for that. Nor was it a new design; it was basically a bigger Cresco. But they did have skydiving in mind during the design. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
collinb 0 #85 July 2, 2009 I jump (fun, team and video) and organize, a lot, at SkyDance and usually organize and run the Bigways but this year wasn't there for the jumps as I was at my son's wedding. We have used the PAC week in week out for 8way and bigger, I have 1500+ jumps in the PAC organizing and team jumps. People at the outside rear need to get low NOT out and video get high NOT out to see. Everyone but the person with the count hug the plane or get low and there is plenty of room for an 8way launch (with video) and line up the rest inside and back moving on the count. Using the inside bar also helps, I noticed on the video people using the outside bars and make sure you are using the lower step. Additionally, in my opinion taking out the right hand seat (facing forward) also helps a lot for the people on the inside but it is a pain in the ass taking it in and out so we leave it in usually. Yes an Otter is better but the PAC is a great plane for its size/cost/etc. My 2 cents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #86 July 2, 2009 Quote5 - CrW and other uses of hop and pops - meh I've done one team CRW jump out of a Pac and we went back to the Otter immediately. Wouldn't kick it out of bed if it's the only thing around but it's not gonna fly CRW loads at Nationals."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #87 July 2, 2009 QuoteQuote5 - CrW and other uses of hop and pops - meh I've done one team CRW jump out of a Pac and we went back to the Otter immediately. Wouldn't kick it out of bed if it's the only thing around but it's not gonna fly CRW loads at Nationals. yeah, low tail, small door, I'd think a well trained team would have to make some adjustments to get their timing down ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #88 July 3, 2009 QuoteI jump (fun, team and video) and organize, a lot, at SkyDance and usually organize and run the Bigways but this year wasn't there for the jumps as I was at my son's wedding. We have used the PAC week in week out for 8way and bigger, I have 1500+ jumps in the PAC organizing and team jumps. People at the outside rear need to get low NOT out and video get high NOT out to see. Everyone but the person with the count hug the plane or get low and there is plenty of room for an 8way launch (with video) and line up the rest inside and back moving on the count. Using the inside bar also helps, I noticed on the video people using the outside bars and make sure you are using the lower step. Additionally, in my opinion taking out the right hand seat (facing forward) also helps a lot for the people on the inside but it is a pain in the ass taking it in and out so we leave it in usually. Yes an Otter is better but the PAC is a great plane for its size/cost/etc. My 2 cents. I kinda figured the leaning out was a factor at least. Seems you guys had a plan about this before.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
collinb 0 #89 July 3, 2009 ...that's just my way, doesn't mean it's the only way or right....I am sure other people have other methods that work for them also. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #90 July 3, 2009 Quote ...that's just my way, doesn't mean it's the only way or right....I am sure other people have other methods that work for them also. I'm glad you posted. I have limited experience with the PAC, but my jumps were from hanging outside. I did find the low tail scary but ignored it and dropped off OK. My question is how would that work for wingsuitors? Is there a greater danger of causing a stall with a group of WS outside? Have large WS groups used the PAC? I think I could dive out or roll out an exit, even with a big wingsuit.But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #91 July 3, 2009 Quote Quote ...that's just my way, doesn't mean it's the only way or right....I am sure other people have other methods that work for them also. I'm glad you posted. I have limited experience with the PAC, but my jumps were from hanging outside. I did find the low tail scary but ignored it and dropped off OK. My question is how would that work for wingsuitors? Is there a greater danger of causing a stall with a group of WS outside? Have large WS groups used the PAC? I think I could dive out or roll out an exit, even with a big wingsuit. thats how you would do it.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #92 July 3, 2009 Have you done it? If you jump a PAC with a WS, have you tried an outside exit? I'm getting that there is a window to fly in with stalling on one end and hitting the tail on the other. Large groups outside can make it hard for the pilot to stay in that window so I wonder how wingsuits would factor in, as I may one day be asked to be in a group and get outside. This thread brought up some questions I had and seems like the place to ask some more. But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #93 July 6, 2009 i've never seen any wingsuiter outside of all the places i've jumped at.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #94 July 6, 2009 Quote i've never seen any wingsuiter outside of all the places i've jumped at.. you didn't jump much did you ? did "6 WS out" exits on Porter's already can't remember doing any "out" WS exits on the PAC, but you can easily put 3 outscissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #95 July 6, 2009 Quote i've never seen any wingsuiter outside of all the places i've jumped at.. It takes longer to build more than a 2-3 way when you can't have floaters in a wing suit formation. When we started jumping wing suits a 2-3 way was on the large side, but now days you should be able to get enough people together that climb-outs are a fine idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #96 July 6, 2009 Quote Quote i've never seen any wingsuiter outside of all the places i've jumped at.. you didn't jump much did you ? did "6 WS out" exits on Porter's already can't remember doing any "out" WS exits on the PAC, but you can easily put 3 out i'm just saying i havent seen that.. besides the point, isnt it very likely to be pulled off when some part of your suit catches air!? i wouldnt want to try anyway.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #97 July 6, 2009 Quote besides the point, isnt it very likely to be pulled off when some part of your suit catches air!? i wouldnt want to try anyway.. are your arms made out of chewing gum ? you could still try and hold the plane with your würstli you'll want to try it when you can scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #98 July 6, 2009 its not chewing gum, but very, very soft rubber.. u coming up this weekend!? “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #99 July 6, 2009 I won't be there, I'll be assisting Jet-Man for a couple of demos on the lakescissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #100 July 6, 2009 now that we could of built that 18-way outside the door.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites