Bailing out low?

[980 0]

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It's not true.... a Cypres or other AAD does not "arm" at all. It senses pressure to determine speed and altitiude and if that threshhold is crossed it fires. It is not as technical as many believe.

Different AAD's have different parameters for firing. It's important to know what combination of freefall speed and altitude causes your specific model to fire.

True I am only speaking about Cypres units which is the only kind I jump with.

According to SSK last time I spoke to them, you are wrong.

They said something like more than 80% of Cypres fires occurs ABOVE 750 ft.

It works like this, if you are exceeding the arming speed at or below 1150ft, then the unit will 'arm' which is to say, it gets in a different mode and ready to fire the cutter.

Once it is armed, it will fire when it calculates it is at 750ft OR IF THERE IS A SUDDEN AND SIGNIFICANT PRESSURE CHANGE. Such as the change you can expect from your body orientation changing from belly to the relative wind, to standing up/sitting in the harness, as this changes the pressure situation on your back (where the AAD is located) significantly.
Inconveniently, this is exactly what happens as a parachute deploys...

So working it backwards for anyone with an AAD who wants a sensible hard deck: you want a fully open main ABOVE 1200ft or you are entering the region of most Cypres fires.
So if you have a very slow opening main, at a subterminal exit it might take as much as 600ft-700ft to open, so 1800ft - 1900ft should be where you go reserve instead to avoid your AAD firing as your main sits you upright (below 1150 but well above 750ft!!!!!!!)

Conveniently the Cypres manual does not tell you this whole story, so just call SSK and ask them if you want to check.

Also, in at least one mode, the Vigil adds 260ft to it's stated firing altitude, as it apparently compensates for some sort of expected error.

[nerd137 0]

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Conveniently the Cypres manual does not tell you this whole story, so just call SSK and ask them if you want to check.

Something seems..... not quite right here.

[dks13827 2]

this video at :32 shows exactly how I exited for hop and pops ( or emergency, if need be ) from ANY AIRPLANE !!
this guy is 1/2 second out of the Cessna, he can pull right now !!! That's how I did it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z8pw5T_qc0

[bob.dino 0]

I've exited a Cessna at a fraction below 2,000ft and been fully open by 1,850. On a Spectre 190 loaded at 1.1. Packed normally.

At 1800 ft, if the plane is flying flat and stable, I'm exiting, counting 1 (to see the tail), and deploying. Because I'm still moving forward at speed, most of my opening will happen horizontally and I'll lose little height.

If, however, the plane is descending (so that I'm not exactly sure of height) or I can't exit stable and am not exactly sure what height I'm going to deploy at, the smart thing would be to use my reserve.

Of course, because it's likely to be a stressful situation and my adrenalin will be up, I'll probably bail and deploy my main as normal. Muscle memory and all that - after all, how often do you physically rehearse an aircraft bail out on silver?

[popsjumper 2]

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Is it wrong that that actually entered my mind before I made the final decision on which canopy to use on bailout? ....... because it did.

What was "wrong" was that you didn't have a plan on what to do at any altitudes and flight conditions.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billeisele 122]

glad to see a healthy discussion on this topic, with turbine craft it rarely happens so most folks don't ever think about it

with the "old" DC-3's and Twin Beech's - we generally expected it so it was never an issue

great comments all around

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[billeisele 122]

to add another item to the discussion: What about turning off the AAD?

What is the purpose of the AAD? If it is to provide some level of protection in case of skydiver "failure to perform", unconsciousness, etc. then maybe you don't need it on a solo jump, and thus can eliminate the two-out issue.

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[Andy9o8 0]

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What is the purpose of the AAD? If it is to provide some level of protection in case of skydiver "failure to perform", unconsciousness, etc. then maybe you don't need it on a solo jump, ..

Unless you bash your head on the door jamb on exit. That was part of the DC-3 experience, too.

[shropshire 0]

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to add another item to the discussion: What about turning off the AAD?

What is the purpose of the AAD? If it is to provide some level of protection in case of skydiver "failure to perform", unconsciousness, etc. then maybe you don't need it on a solo jump, and thus can eliminate the two-out issue.

I can't get to mine when my rig is on my back.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Meux 0]

Part of my pre-jump routine is to touch all my handles, including the RSL disconnect. Mine has a small tab on it, so it is fairly easy to find and pull in the correct direction to get an easy disconnect.

That way you're not fumbling for it, on the plane or in the air.

Great discussion, great experience, learned a ton.

Lots of things went right. The pilot did an awesome job of handling an engine failure with a full load on a warm day. It was a single group of experienced jumpers. The weather was perfect, the exit point was near perfect, everyone stayed calm and followed directions. Change some/one of these variables and everything changes. Imagine a caravan instead of an otter, or a mixed load with some tandems and AFF students on board. Not being able to get back to the airfield or a suitable landing area.

The organizer brought everyone together afterwards to debrief, great learning experience!! This thread has offered some more good thoughts. This might sound whacked, but I'm glad I was there to get one of the best lessons I've ever had.

Mike

[dks13827 2]

2 jumpers in the last year could not pull reserve pillows. I would vote to have a good AAD on my rig.

[lauraliscious 0]

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According to SSK last time I spoke to them, you are wrong.

They said something like more than 80% of Cypres fires occurs ABOVE 750 ft.

It works like this, if you are exceeding the arming speed at or below 1150ft, then the unit will 'arm' which is to say, it gets in a different mode and ready to fire the cutter.

Once it is armed, it will fire when it calculates it is at 750ft OR IF THERE IS A SUDDEN AND SIGNIFICANT PRESSURE CHANGE. Such as the change you can expect from your body orientation changing from belly to the relative wind, to standing up/sitting in the harness, as this changes the pressure situation on your back (where the AAD is located) significantly.
Inconveniently, this is exactly what happens as a parachute deploys...

So working it backwards for anyone with an AAD who wants a sensible hard deck: you want a fully open main ABOVE 1200ft or you are entering the region of most Cypres fires.
So if you have a very slow opening main, at a subterminal exit it might take as much as 600ft-700ft to open, so 1800ft - 1900ft should be where you go reserve instead to avoid your AAD firing as your main sits you upright (below 1150 but well above 750ft!!!!!!!)

That is pretty much EXACTLY what my husband (who is a rigger) said when he found out what happened. He said he would have made the same decision I made, because of this reason. I just had never heard that before. Nice to have some corroboration (not that I don't trust what he says ).

Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091

[billeisele 122]

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2 jumpers in the last year could not pull reserve pillows. I would vote to have a good AAD on my rig.

2 great reasons to have a steel ring instead of a cool looking pillow

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[mdrejhon 8]

I sometimes do 2500 feet exits for cloudbottom jump runs. There are also numerous high altitude hop-n-pop's (including CRW-learning type jumps), frm 2005 to date.

I'm comfortable going for my main from stable level flight down to around 1500 feet, just because a good quick clear-and-pull from subterminal puts me only 100 feet under the airplane, and I trust my packjobs (I was surprised how close the Cessna was above me at a shallow angle ahead of me, when I was in the saddle, and I couldn't tell any difference on the analog altimeter face than when I was in the plane on the jumprun!). Might as well gamble with my main since I trust its historical reliability and its predictable opening speed.

That said, if the airplane was in unstable flight or descending (i.e. falling!), or I was jumping unfamiliar gear, I am far more likely to jump my reserve.

Hand on (or near) my handle I plan to use as I exit, pull when clear. That said, hurried emergency exits may mean I may stumble a bit. Theoretical emergency: "Pilot waves Emergency emergency!" (jumpers behind me say "go, go") -- I observe plane still flying level, 1750 feet (quickly noticing smoke from the engine) dive out sideways, quickly turn 90 degree face-high attitude while still on hill, and immediately pitch -- likely open 300 feet below plane. I'd probably still be using my main, even at this level, but that is ONLY because I know my gear and main's opening behavior. Closer to 1000 feet, I'll pull silver regardless of which way I'm pointing.

[Andy9o8 0]

FWIW, I'd think the average reserve - deployment system, packing technique (I'd hope) and the canopy itself - is set up to handle an unstable deployment a bit more reliably than the average main setup. On the other hand, a last chance is a last chance.

[Baksteen 84]

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to add another item to the discussion: What about turning off the AAD?

What is the purpose of the AAD? If it is to provide some level of protection in case of skydiver "failure to perform", unconsciousness, etc. then maybe you don't need it on a solo jump, and thus can eliminate the two-out issue.

Turning off the AAD is not an option for some, such as any Dutch skydiver who hasn't got their C-licence yet.

Besides, I paid a lot of cash for my cypres - I'm damn well gonna turn it on for every jump.
I have full confidence in my abilities to pull my reserve - but for those unforseeable circumstances in which an AAD can make a difference.

As to the original issue, I do not have a whole lot of H&P's from an otter, but I make plenty from our own C182 at 3500 feet.

My current basic emergency plan: sub-1000 = ride the plane down, 1000-2000 = reserve, >2000 = main.
My Storm is snivelly and I have some issues with off-heading opening. I'm not necessarily blaming the canopy, BTW though my last seven Lightning jumps and reserve demo were on heading.
So I'd basically rather use my 'last chance to live' then having to go into the warm flickery light while feeling stupid about not doing so.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[popsjumper 2]

I'm seeing a lot of discussion about the fear of having 2-out if you go to your main from ~2000ft.

You've got ~1000ft vertical feet, without even considering the horizontal component of your trajectory, to see if your main is going to open properly...if not, cutaway and deploy the reserve. Two chances for the save.

Am I recommending anything to youngsters? NO!
I am simply questioning the logic of the 2-out scenario.


Besides, my rigger likes expensive wine.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[FLJB 0]

Not to get this thread off topic into an AAD discussion, nor to encourage anyone to change their decision altitude or exit decisions, but there has been a few posts about AADs and in section 8.1 of the CYPRES 2 manual and 7.1 in the CYPRES 1 manual it does say that:

"A Student, Expert or Speed CYPRES will not work if the aircraft is exited before it reaches 1500ft (450M) above the airfield takeoff elevation and 1500 ft (450M) above the intended dropzone elevation. in the case of a Tandem CYPRES 3000ft (900M) has to be reached."

...That seems to mean to me that if i exit a plane at 1,399 ft after takeoff, without the plane ascending higher than that during the climb to altitude, my CYPRES 2 will not function as it is not "armed" and i should not have a two out unless i pull a reserve handle... a totally different situation than exiting a plane at 5,000 ft and deploying your main at 1,399 ft. I don't know how many people are aware of that.

That was NOT the case in this particular incident, as we DID ascend above 1500 ft, so the choice to go on reserve is valid. Also, this "arming" altitude may be different for different AADs - but i jump CYPRESes currently so i checked those manuals
Just wanted to throw that fact out for anyone reading this thread. Your personal decision altitude, Your equipment on that jump and that particular situation are all variables in your decision making process as to what you should do at that time.

[mdrejhon 8]

A stable exit from a level flight, if you pitch your main quickly, there's no time for you to accelerate to Cypres arming speeds. That means a good quick clear-and-pull will not even scare a cypres even if you pitch at or near Cypres arming or activation altitudes.

That said, there's the danger of high speed mals, and hesitations. But the bottom line is if you're already familiar with low exits (2000-2500 feet cloudbottom jump runs), and if the airplane is in level flight (less urgent emergency), even pitching at 1200 feet or 1000 feet on exit, won't cause an AAD fire assuming a proper main deployment sequence, since it will take several seconds before you accelerate to Cypres arming speeds.

(WARNING! NOT that I WOULD do it -- and NOT that I would recommend it! But you need to know your gear -- your Cypres doesn't automatically arm quickly on subterminal exits. People have been killed before exiting the plane at low altitudes in an emergency, and the Cypres never had a chance to arm quickly enough from the subterminal acceleration. Can't trust the Cypres or any other AAD to arm quickly at low-altitude subterminal exits. Yes, I've read incidents where low altitude exits NEVER had a chance to arm the cypres before the splat moment. People have to be be aware of VERY SIGNIFICANTLY delayed Cypres activations at subterminal exits!)

That said, I do NOT recommend altering anyone's previously trained emergency exiting procedures. Mine's just simply 1000 feet OR tumbling airplane, straight to silver regardless of body position -- while 1500 feet and up from level plane flight, do regular clear-and-pull main deployment. Regardless, whichever handle, I'd be making damn sure my hand is reaching a handle immediately. My feeling is my main (a quick opening Sabre) and packjobs are reliable enough, and the two-out a small enough chance (especially since a normal opening will occur before my Cypres becomes scared), that I'm safer this way.

Sure, that increases a risk a Cypres popping into a main mal if it happens -- wouldn't be pretty -- but from subterminal could take even as long as 7+ "it-has-happened-before" seconds before the Cypres finally goes through the entire sequence, the pressure sensor finally catching up with the speed (there's always a little lag there), the arming and the electronic decision it makes it cut the loop. At which point I likely have noticed the mal and started my EP's already (Even if I was a bit slow, the Cypres would be cutting after I've already pulled the cutaway -- something I would probably not do, preferring to throw out more fabric at undeer 1000 feet -- a 2-out is dangerous and entanglement prone, but not an automatic death sentence like other mals, at the sizes I fly). Just common sense for me...

[Rstanley0312 0]

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It's not true.... a Cypres or other AAD does not "arm" at all. It senses pressure to determine speed and altitiude and if that threshhold is crossed it fires. It is not as technical as many believe.

Different AAD's have different parameters for firing. It's important to know what combination of freefall speed and altitude causes your specific model to fire.

True I am only speaking about Cypres units which is the only kind I jump with.

According to SSK last time I spoke to them, you are wrong.

They said something like more than 80% of Cypres fires occurs ABOVE 750 ft.

It works like this, if you are exceeding the arming speed at or below 1150ft, then the unit will 'arm' which is to say, it gets in a different mode and ready to fire the cutter.

Once it is armed, it will fire when it calculates it is at 750ft OR IF THERE IS A SUDDEN AND SIGNIFICANT PRESSURE CHANGE. Such as the change you can expect from your body orientation changing from belly to the relative wind, to standing up/sitting in the harness, as this changes the pressure situation on your back (where the AAD is located) significantly.
Inconveniently, this is exactly what happens as a parachute deploys...

So working it backwards for anyone with an AAD who wants a sensible hard deck: you want a fully open main ABOVE 1200ft or you are entering the region of most Cypres fires.
So if you have a very slow opening main, at a subterminal exit it might take as much as 600ft-700ft to open, so 1800ft - 1900ft should be where you go reserve instead to avoid your AAD firing as your main sits you upright (below 1150 but well above 750ft!!!!!!!)

Conveniently the Cypres manual does not tell you this whole story, so just call SSK and ask them if you want to check.

Also, in at least one mode, the Vigil adds 260ft to it's stated firing altitude, as it apparently compensates for some sort of expected error.

Not sure who you spoke to but that is NOT correct at all and is bad information. I happen to personally know Cliff who owns SSK and his son Jumps with me and is a good friend. Also, SSK was started by my former DZO and current DZO's father Steve Stewart. I have gone over this several times and Cliff actually gets frustrated that this inaccurate information is being passed around. The "arming happens a said stated altitudes upon ASCENT and does nothing on DESCENT other than read the pressure and fire when at the altitiude and speed the unit is designed for. There is NO arming on descent. The unit is already set to do what it can do as soon as you exit the door.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[Rstanley0312 0]

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According to SSK last time I spoke to them, you are wrong.

They said something like more than 80% of Cypres fires occurs ABOVE 750 ft.

It works like this, if you are exceeding the arming speed at or below 1150ft, then the unit will 'arm' which is to say, it gets in a different mode and ready to fire the cutter.

Once it is armed, it will fire when it calculates it is at 750ft OR IF THERE IS A SUDDEN AND SIGNIFICANT PRESSURE CHANGE. Such as the change you can expect from your body orientation changing from belly to the relative wind, to standing up/sitting in the harness, as this changes the pressure situation on your back (where the AAD is located) significantly.
Inconveniently, this is exactly what happens as a parachute deploys...

So working it backwards for anyone with an AAD who wants a sensible hard deck: you want a fully open main ABOVE 1200ft or you are entering the region of most Cypres fires.
So if you have a very slow opening main, at a subterminal exit it might take as much as 600ft-700ft to open, so 1800ft - 1900ft should be where you go reserve instead to avoid your AAD firing as your main sits you upright (below 1150 but well above 750ft!!!!!!!)

That is pretty much EXACTLY what my husband (who is a rigger) said when he found out what happened. He said he would have made the same decision I made, because of this reason. I just had never heard that before. Nice to have some corroboration (not that I don't trust what he says ).

That is incorrect and I reccomend you have your husband as a rigger speak with SSK to make sure he understands what actually happens. I think this information is very important.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[billvon 2,384]

>It works like this, if you are exceeding the arming speed at or below
>1150ft, then the unit will 'arm' which is to say, it gets in a different mode
>and ready to fire the cutter.

No, it arms once you ascend above 1500 feet. It is always ready to fire the cutter after that point.

>Once it is armed, it will fire when it calculates it is at 750ft OR IF THERE IS
>A SUDDEN AND SIGNIFICANT PRESSURE CHANGE.

Yes. All an AAD can see is pressure altitude. If you transition from your belly to a stand (i.e. during deployment) it will read that as a continuing descent, since the pressure will continue to increase. If that means it reads a descent past its firing altitude while still above firing speed it will fire.

However, this is not a separate "mode" - it's how altimeters work. Do the following experiment:

Take a sensitive altimeter (like a Digitude) and fly next to someone. Place the altimeter in free air, then place it about six inches from them, then take a grip on their lateral strap. Note how much your altimeter changes. A change of 200-300 feet is not unusual. This is not because the altimeter is "switching modes" it's because the pressure is changing as a result of the wake the skydiver creates as he falls.

If you timed it just right, and moved your altimeter from their lateral strap to beneath their container as they were opening, you would likely see a different altitude than they saw as they deployed. You might even disagree on what altitude things happened at if they had an altimeter that was not in the same location. This disagreement is why the cypres can fire as high as 1000 feet according to the _jumper's_ altimeter.

>So if you have a very slow opening main, at a subterminal exit it
>might take as much as 600ft-700ft to open, so 1800ft - 1900ft should
>be where you go reserve instead to avoid your AAD firing as your main
>sits you upright (below 1150 but well above 750ft!!!!!!!)

Agreed. But I would add that if you do not have an open main by 1800 feet you should be thinking about going to reserve whether or not you have an AAD.

[DanG 1]

The Cypres does, in fact, arm on the way up, and stays that way until you land. On the way down it only senses pressure. That's it. Not altitude, not descent rate, just pressure. It uses the pressure data in conjuction with a clock to ESTIMATE to the best of its ability current altitude and descent rate. If the pressure suddently changes, the ESTIMATES for altitude and descent rate may be off, enough so that the firing parameters might be met, even though you are not, in fact, at 750ft going more than 78mph.

- Dan G

[Rstanley0312 0]

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The Cypres does, in fact, arm on the way up, and stays that way until you land. On the way down it only senses pressure. That's it. Not altitude, not descent rate, just pressure. It uses the pressure data in conjuction with a clock to ESTIMATE to the best of its ability current altitude and descent rate. If the pressure suddently changes, the ESTIMATES for altitude and descent rate may be off, enough so that the firing parameters might be met, even though you are not, in fact, at 750ft going more than 78mph.

Exactly!

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[sergant 0]

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Only thing I would have maybe done different?? Disconnected the RSL. I forgot to do that, but I'm really not sure what difference it would have made.

If you were going bailout on your reserve, what is the reason to disconnect the RSL?