Bailing out low?

[skybeergodd 0]

I would disagree with tandems screwed in this situation.
This whole scenerio rests on the skill and comfort level of the jumper. Plus their personal insight on their gear. Laura went straight to her reserve which is perfectly reasonable and a good decision since her pre-determined decision altitude is 1800 feet.
This is a good topic to get people to think and make their "pre" decisions. In this sport at low altitudes, the slow and meek do "inherit" the Earth. A "pre" decision will save your life.

Now to back to my tandems are screwed---again, skill, knowledge and confidence play a roll. I have personally bailed at 1900' on a straight reserve with only my 2 upper snaps done when I was on a plane that experience an engine out(Cessna) with oil up the windshield. The pilot did not seem too cool and confident he was going to make the runway, so I did what was in the best interest of me and my student, Emergency bailout. Everything worked out for all parties in this case and I could have stayed in the plane but hind sight is ALWAYS 20/20.
Again this was a pre determined altitude that I could leave from with almost 2000 tandems under my belt.
Would I have made the same decision with just a couple hundred tandems----absolutely not, but that why you constantly re-evaluate as the knowledge and experience levels change.

[FLJB 0]

No, he could not without people getting out or else we would have. I was on the load and it went real well. I've been to a few dropzones in my short career, but if i knew i had to be in an emergency, Low, that is the pilot i wanted to have it happen with. That is the way emergency situations should go down and Popsjumper may be like 85 years old but he was THE MAN on that load.

The pilot is very experienced the jumpers were cool and it was kinda fun in a sick sorta way.

subterminal openings do not lose as much altitude because of how soon you pitch out the door. No worries it was all good, we all lived to skydive again that day... and now we have a "no shit, there i was" story to tell when we get old.

[popsjumper 2]

Hey! Wait just a minute here! 85???????????
JohnB, I know where you live, work and play.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[normiss 622]

He guessed low didn't he.

[kkeenan 13]

One of the biggest factors here is capability to execute a safe hop & pop. In training people for CRW, even some with quite a few jumps have trouble making an exit that is stable enough to produce a great opening. In an emergency, they will be even more amped-up and squirrelly.

It's really something that requires more practice than you're likely to get from the occasional a/c emergencies.

Following what's been said, a low h&p is vastly different from terminal velocity at the same altitude. 1800' at exit is much farther from the ground (timewise) than 1800' at terminal v.

Kevin K.

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[Andy_Copland 0]

I'd run up and down the A/C waiving my arms screaming "WONT SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!" Then cover my ears and sing while rocking back and forth on the floor.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[MikeJD 0]

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I'd run up and down the A/C waiving my arms screaming "WONT SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!" Then cover my ears and sing while rocking back and forth on the floor.

That's the procedure for the Skyvan. There isn't enough room for running in the Otter - you have to revert directly to the rocking/ singing.

---------------------------------------

Seriously, at 1800ft I'd plan to be using my main. I've exited a few times between 2 and 2.5K (although it's been a while), and at sub-terminal I don't think that's enough of a difference to switch.

However, the outcome in this case was happy all round and I wouldn't say anybody did the 'wrong' thing.

[Andy_Copland 0]

I'd go with main too, and keep a close watch on alti and canopy opening. If it starts going pear shape im screaming something cool like "Led Zep RUULLLLLE" as i fall away from my canopy hoping on the reserve.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[topdocker 0]

I'd go main for a couple of reasons.

1. Everyone is bombing, tumbling out of an A/C with little regard for opening altitude and direction. Classic time for an opening collision.

2. I could catch a lot the freebags and ransom them back for whiskey.

Besides, my crw canopy is probably faster than my reserve!

top

Jump more, post less!

[jimmytavino 16]

hop and pop exits require a different mindset and a different body position as well..
i've seen many jumpers throw, what they think is a necessary and aggressive ARCH....as they leave...
But a hands back and to the sides, and a squared shoulders and head high attitude relative to the prop(s), and feet and legs blowing back and up....works best for me....

I've done many accuracy exits and seen many others do the same and that "semi-track uphill" body position seems best...
even in a fast exit...pivoting at the door and squaring up to the relative wind would be better than diving head down, toward the tail, or trying to max out a conventional arch...

watch exit videos of CRW teams,,, and you'll have the idea...
hands down and arms back, ( which actually places your pull hand near to the P C handle) ,, and eyes up and forward, keying in to your teammates exit, will also allow you to smile at whomever may be in the door watching you...!!!

I sure hope this past event did NOT cause Popsjumper to get any grey hairs .. sounds like everyone was cool and collected...
a testimony to the entire group...
carry on

jt

[Glandu 0]

...I expect my Pilot to open without spooking the AAD, and I'd rather have two canopy options if needed.

Really??? this is what your instructor taught you??
TRUST your reseve: She is your friend!!!
Your reserve entangling with your main, oops....and flying carefully two canopies out above swamps, woods ,... who knows where... maybe finding yourself far away from your nice landing pattern...Hasta la vista,...

[NWFlyer 2]

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...I expect my Pilot to open without spooking the AAD, and I'd rather have two canopy options if needed.

Really??? this is what your instructor taught you??
TRUST your reseve: She is your friend!!!
Your reserve entangling with your main, oops....and flying carefully two canopies out above swamps, woods ,... who knows where... maybe finding yourself far away from your nice landing pattern...Hasta la vista,...

Nice bunch of assumptions and implications in that post. Nowhere did I imply that I don't trust my reserve. I trust it and have used it when needed. But if I don't *need* to be at my last option, why go there?

And sorry, dude, I may not have as many jumps as you, but to imply that someone with 5 years in the sport, a D license, and a coach rating still makes all her decisions based solely on what her instructors taught her so many years ago is frankly insulting.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[mirage62 0]

First everyone made the correct decision for themselves, everyone landed safely! The plane was reasonable clam during the event. After we landed we talked about what we could have done better. The most important point I think that got brought out was that the time to think about how high to use which handle should be done before you get on the plane NOT when you are faced with the decision.

For me, provided that I believe the pilot is handling the situation in a heads up manner – and BTW this fellow was on top of it – I’m on my main to 1,500 below 1,500 I am staying with the aircraft UNLESS the pilot says otherwise, then it’s to the reserve. I stay in the plane almost no matter what below 500 feet.

Our reserves are great, reliable and all but I have more trust in a pilot landing a Otter with and engine out than I want to trust my reserve. Many people feel different; you should do what you feel good with.

Overall everyone did a good job.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[nerd137 0]

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(I've heard they arm at 1200', fire around 750??? - not sure if this is true).

Read the owner's manual. It's important to know how your specific AAD operates.

[nerd137 0]

I damn near started this exact thread after hearing from a friend who was on that load. I haven't thought about this situation in quite a while, but after reading everyone else's responses my personal EP remains unchanged. At 1800', I would go for my main. I know from personal experience that I lose very little altitude on my main when dumping out the door. I would also be much quicker than normal to chop if my main mal'd. (As opposed to trying fix it.)

At or below 1500', I'd go for my reserve.

[Andy_Copland 0]

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I know from personal experience that I lose very little altitude on my main when dumping out the door.

I think a lot of people dont realise that all that forward movement makes the canopy opening different to opening at terminal when falling straight down.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[fcajump 153]

As the one at the door (load JM) what can you do to assist those you are ushering out? (assuming a large enough door/plane to do so without just getting out of the way)

Watch ground elevation (if relevent)?
Call out altitudes?
Suggest canopy selection?
Shove?

I'm often in the door, and have thought about the canopy I would use at different alt's (solo and tandem), but not considered much about what to do as the load JM at the door (other than leave)...

Suggestions??
JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[lauraliscious 0]

Popsjumper basically stood in the door and gave us an exit signal, so there was enough exit separation between jumpers. He yelled "GO!" and gestured with his arm. He did a great job, and it helped keep the exit nice and orderly.
In response to some of the other comments made, I DO realize there is a big difference between a terminal and a sub-terminal deployment. I also realize that my "snivelly" main is not so snivelly on a hop & pop. But, exiting at my "decision altitude" I just felt that I wouldn't have enough time to recognize and deal with a mal if I had one on my main. Also I have never had a cutaway before, so I'm not sure how much that factored into my decision. Maybe when I've had a few cutaways I would be more comfortable moving my "bailout on reserve" altitude to 1500'.

I agree with whoever said you need to make this decision on the ground, and have a game plan in mind in this situation. I did, and the fact that I had a plan sure helped me remain calm.

And I will read my Cypres manual.

Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091

[tombuch 0]

Quote

As the one at the door (load JM) what can you do to assist those you are ushering out? (assuming a large enough door/plane to do so without just getting out of the way)

Watch ground elevation (if relevent)?
Call out altitudes?
Suggest canopy selection?
Shove?

I'm often in the door, and have thought about the canopy I would use at different alt's (solo and tandem), but not considered much about what to do as the load JM at the door (other than leave)...

Suggestions??
JW

Good question.

I'd suggest simply providing leadership. It can get chaotic in an emergency, but a cool loadmaster who simply serves in the role with an established and calm demeanor will make all the difference. Beyond that, a smile will help, and calling out altitudes on the descent (if the plane is descending) is always appreciated. I've been there many times and am always surprised how a cool head and a smile can keep others calm, and really improve the outcome.

Perhaps no situation helped me to better understand this than working as a jumpmaster at Bridge Day. That's a place where a relaxed leader with a smile who is making eye contact will help move things along, and a good eye for detail will help identify and resolve problems before they ever become critical. Seriously, leadership matters. Most good instructors have developed this skill without ever realizing it, and it's why they are so successful as instructors.

Tom Kolditz wrote an interesting book about leadership based on his experience in the Army and skydiving. It's called In Extremis Leadership. He was interviewed by Leadership In Action recently and posted the link on Facebook, so I'm passing it along here. http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=115737206484&h=-EUYL&u=IE2Pz&ref=mf. Read the article for a sense of how the leadership skills you develop on every jump can be used in an emergency, and how they can be applied in other areas of your life.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[chuckakers 370]

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You're on an Otter, engine out at 1800 ft, which canopy do YOU go for and why?
A recent event has many people asking this question and answering different canopies for different reasons.
Me?
I jump a Spectre 150 and for a sub-terminal hop n pop from 1800? I'm going for my main.

What's your choice and why?


**Edited caws I kaint speel.

I'd say your first considerations are typical main deployment altitude loss and whether the rig has an AAD.

I jump a Velocity which is known for very slow openings (700 - 900 feet), however I don't have an AAD on the rig. I would be comfortable using my main at 1800 feet. If it wasn't "flying" by a grand, I'd chop it.

But that's just me. I hate paying for repacks.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[nerd137 0]

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But, exiting at my "decision altitude" I just felt that I wouldn't have enough time to recognize and deal with a mal if I had one on my main.

There's no one "right" answer for this situation. Both have pro's and con's. Sounds like you made the right decision for you.

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Also I have never had a cutaway before...

Me neither. Knock on wood.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I know from personal experience that I lose very little altitude on my main when dumping out the door.

I think a lot of people dont realise that all that forward movement makes the canopy opening different to opening at terminal when falling straight down.

Yet if the person is not experienced with HnP exits, this statement is less true. It's very quick opening in terms of altitude, providing it's actually deployed quickly and effectively.

Early on for me, I did a 7k exit for a canopy class, flipped the exit out the 206 door, and threw the PC before completing the rotation. The PC snagged on my foot and I had to toe point and wiggle the foot a little to get it to go. At 7k, no problem. At 1800, different story entirely. The reserve deploy is much more forgiving.

This should be a call to get in some practice. Lacking that, one's plan might be different. The canopy classes are great for this, as you typically do 4 or 5 clear n pulls in the day, don't need any special arrangements if the DZ doesn't commonly do them.

[Andy_Copland 0]

Very valid point

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[chuckakers 370]

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One of the biggest factors here is capability to execute a safe hop & pop. In training people for CRW, even some with quite a few jumps have trouble making an exit that is stable enough to produce a great opening.

That's really sad.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[yoink 321]

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Early on for me, I did a 7k exit for a canopy class, flipped the exit out the 206 door, and threw the PC before completing the rotation. The PC snagged on my foot and I had to toe point and wiggle the foot a little to get it to go. At 7k, no problem. At 1800, different story entirely.

The reserve deploy is much more forgiving.

A lower tariff exit might negate the need for the reserve!