What's with Javelin's main pin flap?

[Rover7 0]

Is the Javelin's main pin flap a big problem or not? From many of the rigs I've seen lately, the Javelin is the only one that hasn't changed the design of that flap. Why not? The other rigs, such as Vector, Mirage...etc. seem to be much more secure. Does Sunpath have any plans on redesigning their flap? I love the Javelin rigs, but I am stuck on this main pin flap issue that I hear so much about.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Are you referring to an old or new Javelin?

I just a new Javelin (2003) and it is extremely secure, nothing is exposed.

Please explain what you mean and I'd be happy to take some pictures for you.

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Rover7 0]

I'm talking about new javelins. I understand that they improved the flap from the older ones, but improving and redesigning are two different things. I very new to rig shopping, but just from what I have seen, rigs like vector and mirage and wings have much more secure reverse flaps. Looking and touching the newer javelins, they just seem to be a little less secure with the downward closing. I have also read some threads here where many people talk about the javelins flap being a little more prone to opening in freefall. I understand that some of this is due to different size canopies and so forth, but I was just looking to buy a new rig, and I wanted to get an idea if this is an issue or not.

[leapdog 0]

What I keep seeing over and over again even with the new Javelins is that the stiffener after some wear will get a curve and stay that way. If the rig isn't closed properly meaning a canopy that doesn't fit or some other reason the flap doesn't want to bend where it is supposed to and it bends at the stiffener and not the plyable fabric where it is supposed to. This will later cause the flap to not be as secure as it was. My remedie to keep the stiffener from getting a permenant curve is to tuck the stiffener only under the side flaps and not all three (left, right, top)

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

[skydiverek 54]

It would mess up its cool look. A BIG risk for the company.

[Lindercles 0]

Javelins aren't the only containers that still have that style main flap (as opposed to the "reverse" flap). That was the determining factor for me in choosing a Wings over an Infinity.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

In response to another poster, yes mine has a slight curve to it, but it is still damn snug. I can almost lift my rig by the main flap before the flap unlocks and exposed the pin. Mind you, my rig only has about 55 jumps on it.

If you take care of the rig, it should last a while, plus it should be possible to replace the stiffener.

Thanks for the tip too. I'm gonna try that and see if I can tuck it under less flaps...

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Rover... IMO... there's nothing wrong with Sunpath's main pin flap set-up on the Javelin. Some up-thread have commented about problems which can happen with the stiffiner in it, especially if the canopy choice doesn't fit well with the size Jav in question, but again, IMO, there's nothing systemically wrong with Sunpath's main pin flap set-up on the Jav... and... "no", I don't work for Sunpath.

Anyway, also, its good to ask questions and gather information like you're doing and I encourage you to continue to do so with regards to gear if you're going to continue skydiving... but at the same time, IMO, don't be "sucked in" to thinking that just because some other system or product has the cool new, hip, in-style, "new and improved" bling-bling "feature" that is "better". While this could be true, its not necessisarily true.

[TALONSKY 0]

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Javelins aren't the only containers that still have that style main flap (as opposed to the "reverse" flap). That was the determining factor for me in choosing a Wings over an Infinity.

That interestling, I have seen far more Wings Containers with open main pin flaps in freefall than Infinities. I fact the only Infinity containers I have ever seen open in freefall are ones that the tuck tab has broken on and not be fix. It seems to me that some designs need the closing loop to be the correct length in order to keep the main pin flap shut. That is why I personally think Infinities are the bomb, the way Kelly has it designed it the geometry on the closing flap is constant(where as on a Javelin if the closing loop is too tight or too loose it changes the geometry to the main pin flap). As far as which style is better IMHO the reversed and standard work fine, however I love the fact that my main pin flap is tight enough I can lift my rig by it and it stays closed.
Kirk

[Rover7 0]

Thanks for the input folks. Not sure if I said this before, but I don't necessarily think there is something wrong with the javelin design, I just want make sure about certain things before I purchase a rig. And on the javelin, that is one of the only things that I am sort of concerned about.

[padalcek 9]

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I just want make sure about certain things before I purchase a rig. And on the javelin, that is one of the only things that I am sort of concerned about.

javelin with a closing loop of proper length can be picked up by the "main pin flap" without it popping open. that's pretty secure ... i think.

Padalcek - CCO, HF-17
http://www.theflyinghellfish.com
I'm not a real skydiver - but I do play one on dz.com.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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javelin with a closing loop of proper length can be picked up by the "main pin flap" without it popping open. that's pretty secure ... i think.

I can see your point, but I hope your exhagerating a bit?

Can you say, "Pilot Chute in Tow"



[sarcasm]
... y'all know what... we could go back to cones, and spring loaded main pilot chutes and rip cords... now that would be more "free fly friendly"... wouldn't it... ???
[/sarcasm]

[sundevil777 93]

Quote

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javelin with a closing loop of proper length can be picked up by the "main pin flap" without it popping open. that's pretty secure ... i think.

I can see your point, but I hope your exhagerating a bit?

Can you say, "Pilot Chute in Tow"



[sarcasm]
... y'all know what... we could go back to cones, and spring loaded main pilot chutes and rip cords... now that would be more "free fly friendly"... wouldn't it... ???
[/sarcasm]

I can say it, but it isn't relevant. That flap can stay tucked, and the rig will still open when the pin is pulled.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[stratostar 5]

***we could go back to cones, and spring loaded main pilot chutes and rip cords... now that would be more "free fly friendly"... wouldn't it... ??? ***

Why yes it is... matter of fact.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[rhys 0]

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It would mess up its cool look. A BIG risk for the company.

I also think this is the main reason, However it would be possible to change the function of the flap by putting a pocket on the bottom flap and having essentialy the same design without the 'catchyness',

probably still my all round favorite rig though even though i don't have one yet!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Slurp56 0]

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Is the Javelin's main pin flap a big problem or not? From many of the rigs I've seen lately, the Javelin is the only one that hasn't changed the design of that flap. Why not? The other rigs, such as Vector, Mirage...etc. seem to be much more secure. Does Sunpath have any plans on redesigning their flap? I love the Javelin rigs, but I am stuck on this main pin flap issue that I hear so much about.

It more or less depends on your interpretation of a secure flap. How something "looks" like it should work vs. how it is "designed" to work, are often 2 different things.

With the "downward" tuck pin cover flaps (such as the javelin) it's not necessarily the design, but the implementation that makes these solid. I dont have personal experience with the javelin, but the Inifinity pin cover flap seems to work pretty well, and this is due largely to the location of the closing loop. Next time you're at the DZ, do some comparison and you'll see what I mean.

With my personal rig, I can lift the entire container (packed) by the pin cover flap and it does not come open. Someone mentioned a Pilot Chute in Tow which does not seem to be a problem on these style of containers, once the pin is extracted the closing flaps are no longer under tension and the pin cover flap is freed. There is enough "slack", for lack of a better word, to allow unrestricted pin extraction during deployment.

Try lifting a container that has an "upward" tuck pin cover flap. I'm not implying, in any way, that this is a lesser design, it's definately been proven solid, but imagine snagging that on the window moulding inside the plane. Doesnt take a whole lot of force to open the flap, but thats the case with any flap design given a good enough snag.

Whatever style of pin cover flap you end up with, maintenance is key. None of them work well with broken plastic. If you have further concerns, give the manufacturer a call. They should be happy to address that issue with you, consider it a test of customer service.

________________________________________
I have proof-read this post 500 times, but I guarantee you'll still manage to find a flaw.

[gbstuar 0]

I've done a couple thousand jumps on various javelins and have NEVER had the flaps come open.

Besides the obvious things that people have already mentioned (like broken stiffeners), a closing loop that is too long will definitely make the flaps more prone to open.

Another thing that will help: after tucking the closing flap, *push* the flap further in towards the loop.

The Javelin is a great rig, and with just a little bit of attention it is just as safe and secure as any other rig out there.

[Jordan82 0]

you just answered my question.
i've seen guys customize their javelins so the closing loop installs on the flap instead of the container.
one of these guys wants me to fix his broken stiffeners now!
LoL

[Unstable 8]

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Rover... IMO... there's nothing wrong with Sunpath's main pin flap set-up on the Javelin

I agree. There is nothing wrong with a 'top down' main pin flap on modern rigs. And also there are still many top-down main pin flaps in production on modern rigs and they are no less freefly friendly that the reverse style.

If anybody would like to challenge that the reverse design is fundamentally better, I would challenge them to provide data or evidence as such.

=========Shaun ==========

[LeeroyJenkins 2]

Guys, post is 12 years old.