freakyrat 1 #1 November 29, 2006 Performance Designs has posted a link on their website that answers some of the questions you might have concerning HMA lines presently used on their Katana canopies. I thought it was very informative and has pictures of what to look for in line wear and tips on how to make these lines last longer. Here is the link. http://www.performancedesigns.com/hma.asp Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
icevideot 0 #2 November 29, 2006 Quotehttp://www.performancedesigns.com/hma.asp"... this ain't a Nerf world." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #3 November 29, 2006 *** Performance Designs has posted a link on their website that answers some of the questions you might have concerning HMA lines presently used on their Katana canopies. I thought it was very informative and has pictures of what to look for in line wear and tips on how to make these lines last longer. Here is the link. Quote The info is mostly accurate except the part regarding UV coatings. PD states that "special colored UV coatings" are not required for line longivity. This is totally not true. If interested, Google "Technora UV damage" and read the various acticles about the effect of UV damage to the material. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fueler 0 #4 November 29, 2006 dont forget about un-tangling the mess from a chopped canopy. it blows giant donkey balls. **************************************** what!? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dazzle 0 #5 November 29, 2006 Quote PD states that "special colored UV coatings" are not required for line longivity. This is totally not true. What they said was QuoteThe HMA we use is UV resistant and coated to help prevent wear, although testing indicates that UV damage is not a line life issue. The line will likely need to be replaced due to wear long before UV damage has a chance to affect its strength. Specially colored coatings are not necessary for good lifetime performance of HMA. Do you think that the UV damage will occur before wear damage requires replacement? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrigger1 2 #6 November 29, 2006 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HMA we use is UV resistant and coated to help prevent wear, although testing indicates that UV damage is not a line life issue. The line will likely need to be replaced due to wear long before UV damage has a chance to affect its strength. Specially colored coatings are not necessary for good lifetime performance of HMA. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote I am glad you posted that. The Technora that they use is NOT UV resistant as they state. The material that they use is a natural one with a synthetic coating to help with wear and abrasion.It (the coating) offers very little UV protection. I have the exact same line here in the shop. Do you think that the UV damage will occur before wear damage requires replacement? UV rays absolutely shortens the life of the lines. Cheers, MelSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base_rigger 0 #7 November 29, 2006 QuoteUV rays absolutely shortens the life of the lines True, however HMA suffers from 50% tensile reduction, due to UV damage, between 1.5 to 3 months of continue exposure. This translates in roughly 13000 jumps given 5 minutes/jump.You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #8 November 29, 2006 QuoteHMA suffers from 50% tensile reduction, due to UV damage, between 1.5 to 3 months of continue exposure. This translates in roughly 13000 jumps given 5 Thats fine, but if you are using the smallest line possible, maybe your margin between tensile strength and expected loads is only 20%, or maybe even less. Factor in a combination of wear from use/abbrasion along with the UV wear, you can see that wear you can afford from UV may be very slight. Maybe slight enough that it may manifest itself toward the end of the useful life of the lines. Maybe the coating can stave this off? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base_rigger 0 #9 November 29, 2006 I have 375 LBS UV coated HMA. The line were made continous so it translates into 750 LBS per cascaded line. For my 9 cell that's a total of 18000 LBS, more than 7 times stronger than my type 17 risers so even if I lost 50% I think I'd be in good shape. I got 300 jumps on the line set and the wear is not even noticable and absolutely not even 1/10 of an inch change in trim. I swear by HMA and Dacron depending on the application. I don't care for spectra and vectran at all.You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #10 November 29, 2006 Are you expecting every line to break at the same time? Thats seems to be what your math is implying. I'd be more looking at the individual line breakage, in the 'A' line area to be specific. At the very least it would put the canopy out of service for the rest of the day (which sucks becasue my choices for a back-up canopy are big and slow). At the very worst, I'm cutting away, and have all that to deal with. Anything that will prevent any wear is a plus in my department. For my money, I'd prefer to not know when a line will break, just that they will all make it to the next reline. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base_rigger 0 #11 November 29, 2006 Whatever man this is turing into a pissing contest. PD is using cascaded HMA 500 LBS, my canopy has continuous 375 so very much like cascaded 750 and it's a sub 100 so I am not really worry about things blowing apart. Oh and if something does break (very unlikely) having seen the line are non-cascaded non-bartacked it takes me about 10 minutes to replace one.You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #12 November 29, 2006 QuoteWhatever man this is turing into a pissing contest Yeah, fuck it. Are you using a straight stich? Or the no-sew fingertrap? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base_rigger 0 #13 November 29, 2006 no-sew, those lines are too thin for straight too and the no-sew has shown break above the knot so it's all good.You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites deathtrap 0 #14 November 30, 2006 Quote*** Quote The HMA we use is UV resistant... Quote I am glad you posted that. The Technora that they use is NOT UV resistant as they state.Quote From what I know about HMA there is one (maybe more) place(s) that makes the actual thread and quite a few that braid it and coat it, don't you think it's possible PD gets it from someplace other then your supplier? I would think the safe bet would be on PD not lying about their products. On a side note, I'm sure that colored line has caused other problems... I would bet there is a reason PD doesn't use it... Just my thoughts anyway, not trying to cause any trouble... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base_rigger 0 #15 November 30, 2006 The stuff I use is coated UV (black). I bleeds a little into the rubber bands (first 100 jumps or so), that's all.You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RMURRAY 1 #16 November 30, 2006 MEL, how much UV damage comes from sunlight compared to indoor lighting? I never leave my rig unpacked and exposed to florescent lights - is that going overboard? rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yardhippie 0 #17 November 30, 2006 QuoteMEL, how much UV damage comes from sunlight compared to indoor lighting? I never leave my rig unpacked and exposed to florescent lights - is that going overboard? rm Id like to start with the phrase " I is not a rigger" with that said heres my .02. Any light source is going to have some element of IR to UV light for its design. That being said, I keep my gear packed or unpacked in its bag at all times, unless being jumped. Not just for protection from light but all other potential hazards in a trunk, closet, etc. I had one of the first Nitron canopies produced for Precision. Lined with continuous uncoated HMA (750 I belive). It was built in 01 (I think), I aquired it in 02 and jumped it until this summer. At no time did the lines ever show signs of wear. I loaded it around 1.7 - 1.8 for the better part of 600 jumps. When the lines broke, it was the two center 'A' lines. No warning nada, just bang. I belive the lines lived their expected life as they should have, but I also took very good care of my gear, going as far as to cover it with a towel if there was no shade. It is also my belief that at those loadings proper care will allow you that greater margin of safety when the line set approaches its prescribed life span. Then add a coating to protect those lines when you cannot? maybe I'd have made it through the season and sent the canopy off for a new lines set as I had planned, w/o the lines breaking. So after that long winded rambling. I dont believe that anthing done to protect your gear in ANY environment is "overboard". The stuff does save our lives. Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD "What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me "Anything you want." ~ female skydiver Mohoso Rodriguez #865 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Spizzzarko 0 #18 November 30, 2006 When jumping up here in Colorado UV plays a little more of a factor in things. I'm not a scientist (just an amature gynecologist), but I can tell you that you will get sunburned a hell of a lot faster here in Colorado than in Florida or some other sea level place (anything under 2,000' msl is considered sea level in my book...) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrigger1 2 #19 November 30, 2006 Rob, Direct sunlight seems to be the enemy here. Most of the line failures seem to happened in enhanced Sunlight/UV areas. For instance, Eloy and MileHi in Colorado. When a canopy comes in for reline, I sometimes test a line that is removed just to get an idea of the failure strength. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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fueler 0 #4 November 29, 2006 dont forget about un-tangling the mess from a chopped canopy. it blows giant donkey balls. **************************************** what!? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dazzle 0 #5 November 29, 2006 Quote PD states that "special colored UV coatings" are not required for line longivity. This is totally not true. What they said was QuoteThe HMA we use is UV resistant and coated to help prevent wear, although testing indicates that UV damage is not a line life issue. The line will likely need to be replaced due to wear long before UV damage has a chance to affect its strength. Specially colored coatings are not necessary for good lifetime performance of HMA. Do you think that the UV damage will occur before wear damage requires replacement? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #6 November 29, 2006 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HMA we use is UV resistant and coated to help prevent wear, although testing indicates that UV damage is not a line life issue. The line will likely need to be replaced due to wear long before UV damage has a chance to affect its strength. Specially colored coatings are not necessary for good lifetime performance of HMA. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote I am glad you posted that. The Technora that they use is NOT UV resistant as they state. The material that they use is a natural one with a synthetic coating to help with wear and abrasion.It (the coating) offers very little UV protection. I have the exact same line here in the shop. Do you think that the UV damage will occur before wear damage requires replacement? UV rays absolutely shortens the life of the lines. Cheers, MelSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base_rigger 0 #7 November 29, 2006 QuoteUV rays absolutely shortens the life of the lines True, however HMA suffers from 50% tensile reduction, due to UV damage, between 1.5 to 3 months of continue exposure. This translates in roughly 13000 jumps given 5 minutes/jump.You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #8 November 29, 2006 QuoteHMA suffers from 50% tensile reduction, due to UV damage, between 1.5 to 3 months of continue exposure. This translates in roughly 13000 jumps given 5 Thats fine, but if you are using the smallest line possible, maybe your margin between tensile strength and expected loads is only 20%, or maybe even less. Factor in a combination of wear from use/abbrasion along with the UV wear, you can see that wear you can afford from UV may be very slight. Maybe slight enough that it may manifest itself toward the end of the useful life of the lines. Maybe the coating can stave this off? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base_rigger 0 #9 November 29, 2006 I have 375 LBS UV coated HMA. The line were made continous so it translates into 750 LBS per cascaded line. For my 9 cell that's a total of 18000 LBS, more than 7 times stronger than my type 17 risers so even if I lost 50% I think I'd be in good shape. I got 300 jumps on the line set and the wear is not even noticable and absolutely not even 1/10 of an inch change in trim. I swear by HMA and Dacron depending on the application. I don't care for spectra and vectran at all.You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #10 November 29, 2006 Are you expecting every line to break at the same time? Thats seems to be what your math is implying. I'd be more looking at the individual line breakage, in the 'A' line area to be specific. At the very least it would put the canopy out of service for the rest of the day (which sucks becasue my choices for a back-up canopy are big and slow). At the very worst, I'm cutting away, and have all that to deal with. Anything that will prevent any wear is a plus in my department. For my money, I'd prefer to not know when a line will break, just that they will all make it to the next reline. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base_rigger 0 #11 November 29, 2006 Whatever man this is turing into a pissing contest. PD is using cascaded HMA 500 LBS, my canopy has continuous 375 so very much like cascaded 750 and it's a sub 100 so I am not really worry about things blowing apart. Oh and if something does break (very unlikely) having seen the line are non-cascaded non-bartacked it takes me about 10 minutes to replace one.You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #12 November 29, 2006 QuoteWhatever man this is turing into a pissing contest Yeah, fuck it. Are you using a straight stich? Or the no-sew fingertrap? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base_rigger 0 #13 November 29, 2006 no-sew, those lines are too thin for straight too and the no-sew has shown break above the knot so it's all good.You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deathtrap 0 #14 November 30, 2006 Quote*** Quote The HMA we use is UV resistant... Quote I am glad you posted that. The Technora that they use is NOT UV resistant as they state.Quote From what I know about HMA there is one (maybe more) place(s) that makes the actual thread and quite a few that braid it and coat it, don't you think it's possible PD gets it from someplace other then your supplier? I would think the safe bet would be on PD not lying about their products. On a side note, I'm sure that colored line has caused other problems... I would bet there is a reason PD doesn't use it... Just my thoughts anyway, not trying to cause any trouble... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base_rigger 0 #15 November 30, 2006 The stuff I use is coated UV (black). I bleeds a little into the rubber bands (first 100 jumps or so), that's all.You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RMURRAY 1 #16 November 30, 2006 MEL, how much UV damage comes from sunlight compared to indoor lighting? I never leave my rig unpacked and exposed to florescent lights - is that going overboard? rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yardhippie 0 #17 November 30, 2006 QuoteMEL, how much UV damage comes from sunlight compared to indoor lighting? I never leave my rig unpacked and exposed to florescent lights - is that going overboard? rm Id like to start with the phrase " I is not a rigger" with that said heres my .02. Any light source is going to have some element of IR to UV light for its design. That being said, I keep my gear packed or unpacked in its bag at all times, unless being jumped. Not just for protection from light but all other potential hazards in a trunk, closet, etc. I had one of the first Nitron canopies produced for Precision. Lined with continuous uncoated HMA (750 I belive). It was built in 01 (I think), I aquired it in 02 and jumped it until this summer. At no time did the lines ever show signs of wear. I loaded it around 1.7 - 1.8 for the better part of 600 jumps. When the lines broke, it was the two center 'A' lines. No warning nada, just bang. I belive the lines lived their expected life as they should have, but I also took very good care of my gear, going as far as to cover it with a towel if there was no shade. It is also my belief that at those loadings proper care will allow you that greater margin of safety when the line set approaches its prescribed life span. Then add a coating to protect those lines when you cannot? maybe I'd have made it through the season and sent the canopy off for a new lines set as I had planned, w/o the lines breaking. So after that long winded rambling. I dont believe that anthing done to protect your gear in ANY environment is "overboard". The stuff does save our lives. Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD "What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me "Anything you want." ~ female skydiver Mohoso Rodriguez #865 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Spizzzarko 0 #18 November 30, 2006 When jumping up here in Colorado UV plays a little more of a factor in things. I'm not a scientist (just an amature gynecologist), but I can tell you that you will get sunburned a hell of a lot faster here in Colorado than in Florida or some other sea level place (anything under 2,000' msl is considered sea level in my book...) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrigger1 2 #19 November 30, 2006 Rob, Direct sunlight seems to be the enemy here. Most of the line failures seem to happened in enhanced Sunlight/UV areas. For instance, Eloy and MileHi in Colorado. When a canopy comes in for reline, I sometimes test a line that is removed just to get an idea of the failure strength. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
base_rigger 0 #15 November 30, 2006 The stuff I use is coated UV (black). I bleeds a little into the rubber bands (first 100 jumps or so), that's all.You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #16 November 30, 2006 MEL, how much UV damage comes from sunlight compared to indoor lighting? I never leave my rig unpacked and exposed to florescent lights - is that going overboard? rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yardhippie 0 #17 November 30, 2006 QuoteMEL, how much UV damage comes from sunlight compared to indoor lighting? I never leave my rig unpacked and exposed to florescent lights - is that going overboard? rm Id like to start with the phrase " I is not a rigger" with that said heres my .02. Any light source is going to have some element of IR to UV light for its design. That being said, I keep my gear packed or unpacked in its bag at all times, unless being jumped. Not just for protection from light but all other potential hazards in a trunk, closet, etc. I had one of the first Nitron canopies produced for Precision. Lined with continuous uncoated HMA (750 I belive). It was built in 01 (I think), I aquired it in 02 and jumped it until this summer. At no time did the lines ever show signs of wear. I loaded it around 1.7 - 1.8 for the better part of 600 jumps. When the lines broke, it was the two center 'A' lines. No warning nada, just bang. I belive the lines lived their expected life as they should have, but I also took very good care of my gear, going as far as to cover it with a towel if there was no shade. It is also my belief that at those loadings proper care will allow you that greater margin of safety when the line set approaches its prescribed life span. Then add a coating to protect those lines when you cannot? maybe I'd have made it through the season and sent the canopy off for a new lines set as I had planned, w/o the lines breaking. So after that long winded rambling. I dont believe that anthing done to protect your gear in ANY environment is "overboard". The stuff does save our lives. Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD "What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me "Anything you want." ~ female skydiver Mohoso Rodriguez #865 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #18 November 30, 2006 When jumping up here in Colorado UV plays a little more of a factor in things. I'm not a scientist (just an amature gynecologist), but I can tell you that you will get sunburned a hell of a lot faster here in Colorado than in Florida or some other sea level place (anything under 2,000' msl is considered sea level in my book...) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #19 November 30, 2006 Rob, Direct sunlight seems to be the enemy here. Most of the line failures seem to happened in enhanced Sunlight/UV areas. For instance, Eloy and MileHi in Colorado. When a canopy comes in for reline, I sometimes test a line that is removed just to get an idea of the failure strength. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
