Landings ... I am frustrated beyond belief!!!

[danielcroft 2]

This is the more realistic root to the saying "Those who can, do; those that can't, teach". It's usually used in a negative context but in reality it's an invaluable skill to be able to teach others, it's just looked down on in society unfortunately. I think empathy is also required.

[zen_mtn_climber 0]

Sorry to split hairs but actually I would say that in any field, natural ability and teaching ability are independent of each other, not a "one or the other" type thing. Some could have both, some may have one or the other ability.

I would state it as "A natural skydiver is not necessarily a good instructor/coach/mentor" You may find that someone with natural ability who just got it the first time but also has a disposition, understanding of the topic they are teaching and a natural gift for teaching that makes them a great instructor.

"Whatever the future holds down the road, being true to yourself is something you won't ever regret doing. " - airtwardo

[d123 1]

I disagree with you!
I've wrote a big mail explaining my perspective but at the heart of it an instructor is good if he loves doing and teaching.
A natural skydiver that is an instructor can invent new moves but he has to learn new teaching methods from the non natural ones(and this is not an easy process).
A non natural skydiver can invent new teaching methods but he has to learn new moves from natural ones (and this is not an easy process).

I see it as a balance: The easier it is for you to discover something new the hard it will be to explain it. The harder it is to do it the easier it will be to explain it once you've made sense of it.

Notice that "something new" is the key word here to understand my perspective!

I've also seen coaches, coaching from behind the glass and students flying mentis without needing it and doing less points than what they usually did in the box man.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[zen_mtn_climber 0]

Sorry but loving what you doing and loving teaching isn't enough . . probably necessary but not sufficient.

My point is that teaching is a separate skill. I agree that often times a natural in any field is not a good instructor. Just because you're good at something doesn't mean you can explain it to someone else. But you don't have to stuggle at something to have empathy and understanding of what a student is going through . . we all struggle at certain things in our lives. And just because you struggle and figure something out for yourself doesn't mean that same line of thought is going to resonate with someone else.

A good instructor knows that different people have different learning styles and can teach to these styles. Some are auditory learners, some kinestic, some visual as their dominant learning style. A good instructor has learned to quickly pick up cues from their students as to their learning style and can then tailor what they are trying to teach to their students in a way that person will learn easiest.

And a good instructor should also know their subject inside and out. They should know their subject so well that they can explain it in a number of different ways so they can teach it in a way that their student will 'get it'

When you say the easier it is to discover something the harder it will be to explain it . . that's not necessarily true . . and just because you've made sense of something doesn't mean you can explain it in a way that someone else can understand. The best teachers will have taken time to really understand their subject, whether it was easy or hard for them at first.

I guess all I'm saying is the "best" instructors are those that know their subjects extremely well, empathize and care about their students and are really good at the independent skill of teaching, so that they can really pass on that knowledge.

"Whatever the future holds down the road, being true to yourself is something you won't ever regret doing. " - airtwardo

[GaVak 0]

I'm having similar problems. My question for you is: Are you accused of being an over analytical thinker? If so, then like me you are probably actively thinking about your landing each and every time vs having a 'feel' for it or a background process that figures it out based on a site picture. (iNtuitive/Thinking vs Sensing/Feeling on the Myers-Briggs scale)

After 64 jumps, I still notice when I'm in my landing pattern; the 'Automatic' pilot sort of clicks off and I'm left holding the toggles having to calculate the landing process all over again.

I'm working on my problem by going over my landings that are good in my head right after the landing to look for the key visual images that I noticed as I flaired. My thought is if I drill my good landings into my memory, it will be more automatic of a process in my head on landing.

Or it could just be I never have had to judge distances by sight before and my brain isn't trained to do it on the fly.

Regardless, good luck with it.

~d

Life doesn't need reasons, just participants.

D.S.#21

[d123 1]

> Sorry but loving what you doing and loving teaching isn't enough . . probably necessary but not sufficient.

Well, honestly, you can only validate this conclusion if you live it from inside because someone saying "I love doing this" doesn't necessary means that he does.

If this is honestly true for you it means that you don't have the love of teaching and that's OK in my world ... but please don't say this like its the ultimate truth because is not and people who love teaching will be offended. And no, I'm not talking about the instructor who coached detached from behind the glass.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[ianmdrennan 2]

Tom Dellibac has run two Flight-1 (aka Scott Miller) canopy courses at Jumptown (which I believe is your 'home' dz). Did you take any of them?

Oftentimes a little bit of video feedback will really help a jumper get over this hump.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[fred 0]

Quote

After 64 jumps, I still notice when I'm in my landing pattern; the 'Automatic' pilot sort of clicks off and I'm left holding the toggles having to calculate the landing process all over again.

Hee. I'm an analytical thinker, and while my landings are solid, my landing pattern and accuracy need work. And throughout the landing pattern, I feel like a GPS constantly announcing, "Recalculating".

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Quote

Sorry but loving what you doing and loving teaching isn't enough . . probably necessary but not sufficient.

If this is honestly true for you it means that you don't have the love of teaching and that's OK in my world ... but please don't say this like its the ultimate truth because is not and people who love teaching will be offended. And no, I'm not talking about the instructor who coached detached from behind the glass.

I agree with the poster. Having a love of teaching is not sufficient to be a good teacher. Neither is being good at what you're trying to teach. These are three separate skills/traits (doing, teaching, and enjoying teaching). But certainly, I've had some teachers who loved teaching, who weren't very good at it.

[ianmdrennan 2]

My teammate, Tommy, is teaching in Jumptown the 9th-14th of Sept (next week).

Take the course, I'm postive you won't regret it :)

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[martlet 0]

Quote

My teammate, Tommy, is teaching in Jumptown the 9th-14th of Sept (next week).

Take the course, I'm postive you won't regret it :)

Blues,
Ian

I took Tommy's course at JT. Good course, great guy.

[virgin-burner 1]

i'm pretty much everything but a "natural", and i've had many an issue with my landings in particular; that said, i've had my coach/instructor/mentor go things over with me over a beer. and when i brought up the "two-stage", he got kinda enraged..

that being said, flying and landing are really a thing of "feeling" rather than a recipe the kind of "after you do A, it is now time to do B", eg. "two-stage flare". you have to "fly" your canopy if you want to get it decent. then you also have to add pure knowledge, like in certain windconditions you have down-rotors because of nearby trees or roofs, so you have to start your flare up higher, as you will suddenly drop 6ft once you're close to the ground.

this is probably harder to teach, but the earlier you start doing this, the better canopy-pilot you will be in the end. because "recipes" might have an adverse effect; "i did everything as it was taught to me and i still biffed in!" (say because of those rotors mentioned above), the jumper will be less confident and struggle even harder, and being scared will only make him/her freeze..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[IAMBuddha 0]

"i'm pretty much everything but a "natural", and i've had many an issue with my landings in particular; that said, i've had my coach/instructor/mentor go things over with me over a beer. and when i brought up the "two-stage", he got kinda enraged..."

Maybe he was enraged because you gave him piss beer to drink!?
Next time, try talking to him when he is less inebri...inebra...inebriat...oh hell, drunk! ;)

[shah269 0]

Quote

i'm pretty much everything but a "natural",

After speaking with Mr. Germain and taking his class he recomended I buy an Altima that way I will be able to keep my eyes on target and not on my altimiter and thus slowly over time rely less and less on insturmentation.

As for the two stage flare looking at the "math" it appears you are converting \ to -- with the first part and -- to / on the second part. It's amazing how complicated these canopies are with respect to how they fly and behave.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[skybytch 259]

Quote

that being said, flying and landing are really a thing of "feeling" rather than a recipe the kind of "after you do A, it is now time to do B", eg. "two-stage flare". you have to "fly" your canopy if you want to get it decent.

So how would you teach that to someone who doesn't get the whole zen "feeling" thing? Telling someone to "fly the canopy" doesn't give them any information on HOW to fly the canopy. Telling someone to finish the flare doesn't help them if you don't tell them HOW to finish the flare.

Give a person like that a basic "recipe" for an effective flare, and with time and practice they will learn to "just fly the canopy."

I could be wrong, but the results I've seen so far tell me I'm not.

[kkeenan 13]

Try this - Get up on a picnic table, or other platform about that height and length. If you can find something longer, that is better. Start at one end and run to the other end, jumping off as you get to it. Don't try to stop as you hit the ground, watch the ground as you leave and, as you land, keep running a few steps. If you fall, try to roll, as in a forward PLF.

This is a good simulation to train your eyes and your feet to work together to run out a landing. It may sound silly, but having your brain get used to the "sight picture" will make you react better. Doing 100 of these "landings" is way cheaper than 100 jumps, and can actually improve your landings.

Kevin K.

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[d123 1]

You don't have to popup to land well.
I like the way you've wrote that Very visual!

"/\/\" = bumpy ride, turbulance

"|" = stall
.
|-. = me taking a leak

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[shah269 0]

I wouldn't call it a pop up from taking the class it's an method by which to maintain lift at low speeds.
It would look like /. with you leaning forward so as to be able to place your foot flat down and to "pull" your airfoil into the wind.
But it's just my way of seeing things. I'll have a beeter idea next year when I get back into the air.
So for now, i'm just talking out of my ass for nothing is better than experience.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[virgin-burner 1]

there's always a case of FREE beer provided by the dz..

and thank god we have regularly AFF-students passing..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[virgin-burner 1]

Quote

Quote

that being said, flying and landing are really a thing of "feeling" rather than a recipe the kind of "after you do A, it is now time to do B", eg. "two-stage flare". you have to "fly" your canopy if you want to get it decent.

So how would you teach that to someone who doesn't get the whole zen "feeling" thing? Telling someone to "fly the canopy" doesn't give them any information on HOW to fly the canopy. Telling someone to finish the flare doesn't help them if you don't tell them HOW to finish the flare.

Give a person like that a basic "recipe" for an effective flare, and with time and practice they will learn to "just fly the canopy."

I could be wrong, but the results I've seen so far tell me I'm not.

mhm, i dont want to argue here what works for you or others; but i'm seeing pretty experienced skydivers that just do a simple stroke down and just "pop in place". not really an elegant sight to someone with 500+ jumps.

the "zen-feeling-flying"-guys, well, some have 2-300 or even less jumps, and ALMOST look like the guys with 3000+ jumps on their tiny velos. of course not with the same approaches, but they're actually FLYING their canopies nicely over the ground. for some things i guess you just have to practice. and developing a feeling for it. that is, if you think of your canopy-ride other than just the means of landing you in one piece!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

that being said, flying and landing are really a thing of "feeling" rather than a recipe the kind of "after you do A, it is now time to do B", eg. "two-stage flare". you have to "fly" your canopy if you want to get it decent.

So how would you teach that to someone who doesn't get the whole zen "feeling" thing? Telling someone to "fly the canopy" doesn't give them any information on HOW to fly the canopy. Telling someone to finish the flare doesn't help them if you don't tell them HOW to finish the flare.

Give a person like that a basic "recipe" for an effective flare, and with time and practice they will learn to "just fly the canopy."

I could be wrong, but the results I've seen so far tell me I'm not.

mhm, i dont want to argue here what works for you or others; but i'm seeing pretty experienced skydivers that just do a simple stroke down and just "pop in place".

>>Sounds like a good landing. Simple stroke down/flare and "pop" or land in place


not really an elegant sight to someone with 500+ jumps.

>>You have 500 jumps now? Why do you hide you jump numbers all of a sudden

the "zen-feeling-flying"-guys, well, some have 2-300 or even less jumps, and ALMOST look like the guys with 3000+ jumps on their tiny velos.

>>And like skybytch said, they didn't just have the Zen feeling. They had to learn like every student with step by step >>instructions on how to fly and flare a canopy. They had to develop that feeling.

for some things i guess you just have to practice. and developing a feeling for it. that is, if you think of your canopy-ride other than just the means of landing you in one piece!

>>That is the whole reason to have a parachute. To land in one piece. That is the #1 rule of AFF. To land safely under an >>open parachute. There are survival skills you should learn for flying a parachute safely around other people but the main >>reason to have a parachute is to land you in one piece.

• Quote

[Sangi 0]

It's about jumping your ass off and practising...

I was never good at freefall (took 12 AFF jumps to pass and still was sucky), I never got the whole arching (on one jump fell 1.5km straight on my back and couldn't get on my belly, though the instructor said it was the most stable backflying he has ever seen LOL) and doing turns thing, but always felt confident under canopy and haven't had problems with it...

To each their own, jump your ass off and practise something that you suck at and eventually you'll get it right or at least half decent..

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[virgin-burner 1]

just cant be fucked anymore with peoples attitudes here, so why should i give out extra information.. i did enough of that already!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[crustySCSA69 0]

I read this thread before ... now i have enough beer on to post ..

GET THE LARGEST, MOST DOCILE STUDENT TYPE SQUARE you can find (your DZ might be using canopies that are too hot for students... check out all 'student' squares)

PLF EVERY LANDING until you are comfortable

NEVER UPGRADE YOUR CANOPY ....

ask yourself ... am I in this
A. to Skydive
B. to look cool

if you answer is B, you're fucked ...

if you answer A. ... FORGET WHAT THE EXPERTS TELL YOU ...
get the most docile, largest canopy you can find .. Skydiving has NOTHING to do with parachutes (other than you need one to save your life)
fast (unstable), small (unstable) modern (unstable) squares are a marketing abortion you do NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT..

I was on a world record ... the only round canopy there...I did not care if I was 'fashionable' (and in those days, no one died landing a square)

if you truly just want to be a skydiver ... forget the 'social' pressure about gear... jump something comfortable .. and concentrate on 'Skydiving' ... parachutes are NOT skydiving, no matter what some idiots might tell you ... get something comfortable (no matter how 'unfashionable' .. and stick with it)

PARACHUTES ARE NOT SKYDIVING ... they just save your life... get one that works for you and screw the 'fashionable' take on it all...

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

I read this thread before ... now i have enough beer on to post ..

GET THE LARGEST, MOST DOCILE STUDENT TYPE SQUARE you can find (your DZ might be using canopies that are too hot for students... check out all 'student' squares)

PLF EVERY LANDING until you are comfortable

NEVER UPGRADE YOUR CANOPY ....

ask yourself ... am I in this
A. to Skydive
B. to look cool

if you answer is B, you're fucked ...

if you answer A. ... FORGET WHAT THE EXPERTS TELL YOU ...
get the most docile, largest canopy you can find .. Skydiving has NOTHING to do with parachutes (other than you need one to save your life)
fast (unstable), small (unstable) modern (unstable) squares are a marketing abortion you do NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT..

I was on a world record ... the only round canopy there...I did not care if I was 'fashionable' (and in those days, no one died landing a square)

if you truly just want to be a skydiver ... forget the 'social' pressure about gear... jump something comfortable .. and concentrate on 'Skydiving' ... parachutes are NOT skydiving, no matter what some idiots might tell you ... get something comfortable (no matter how 'unfashionable' .. and stick with it)

PARACHUTES ARE NOT SKYDIVING ... they just save your life... get one that works for you and screw the 'fashionable' take on it all...

Yep, I'd say you've had enough.