Response to "line over"

[kpipes22 0]

Regret if this question/issue has been raised many times previously; I did do a Forum Search on "line over" and found helpful info from 2002.

I read a Post from a guy, that received advice from a Rigger in Eloy, as follows: "in line over situation, leave brake lines stowed, and pull down vigorously on rear risers" [although not stated, assume release rear risers quickly, too?].

Is this, as stated above, current-thinking?

Understand one could also release, and vigorously pump, brake lines; though someone suggested this could create canopy-line-burn. Also, understand a handy hook knife could be used to remove the offending line.

But, frankly, the overall goal is to take swift, appropriate action for safest possible landing. A cut line, or a canopy burn, can be easily repaired.

Other advice for handling line overs? Thanks.

"You can't overcome weakness by fighting it,
or by thinking your way out of it:
Evolution doesn't work that way . . .
You overcome weakness by leaving it behind you!" ~ Stuart Wilde ~

[yoink 321]

To be honest, at your experience level, line overs are dealt with in the way dictated by your first jump course rather than from secondhand internet information.

Like a lot of things in skydiving, until you have some experience behind you it's next to impossible to figure out all the what-ifs in a scenario, particularly in one when a decision can have multiple types of outcome - some good, some bad.

what happens if you haul on your risers and the canopy stalls or twists up? Have you got your hand caught? Can you even pull down on the risers o nyour current canopy? What's your cutaway decision? Do you know what will happen if you cut that line and are you expecting it? Can you land a canopy with a line cut? What height are you at now, what height did you pull and how much height are you losing trying to fix the problem? How much longer have you got? Are you wearing an AAD? All this sort of stuff needs to go through your head instantly and most students simply don't know enough to be able to do that yet.

You have to realise that sometimes you will make a docile situation worse by trying to 'fix' it in the air.

There's a reason First Jump courses are taught the way they are. Don't start second guessing your instructors just yet! They hate that!

[format 0]

Yeah!
("+1", "that's great", "bravo", "I agree" etc. )

What goes around, comes later.

[chuckakers 369]

Quote

Regret if this question/issue has been raised many times previously; I did do a Forum Search on "line over" and found helpful info from 2002.

I read a Post from a guy, that received advice from a Rigger in Eloy, as follows: "in line over situation, leave brake lines stowed, and pull down vigorously on rear risers" [although not stated, assume release rear risers quickly, too?].

Is this, as stated above, current-thinking?

Understand one could also release, and vigorously pump, brake lines; though someone suggested this could create canopy-line-burn. Also, understand a handy hook knife could be used to remove the offending line.

But, frankly, the overall goal is to take swift, appropriate action for safest possible landing. A cut line, or a canopy burn, can be easily repaired.

Other advice for handling line overs? Thanks.

Cut away.

A reserve repack costs about as much as a line replecement, and it's quicker. A cutaway is also faster and safer than screwing around pulling out a hook knife and manually hacking the line.

Just out of curiosity, why would your first inclination not be to cut away?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[billvon 2,379]

>I read a Post from a guy, that received advice from a Rigger in Eloy, as follows:

>"in line over situation, leave brake lines stowed, and pull down vigorously on rear
>risers" [although not stated, assume release rear risers quickly, too?] Is this,
>as stated above, current-thinking? Understand one could also release, and
>vigorously pump, brake lines; though someone suggested this could create
>canopy-line-burn. Also, understand a handy hook knife could be used to remove
>the offending line.

All of the above are reasonable approaches to dealing with a lineover on your reserve parachute. (Hookknife usage is unlikely though.) However, most lineovers on main parachutes that do not clear themselves will not clear by pumping on them, and doing that may eat up altitude.

[yoink 321]

Quote

>I read a Post from a guy, that received advice from a Rigger in Eloy, as follows:

>"in line over situation, leave brake lines stowed, and pull down vigorously on rear
>risers" [although not stated, assume release rear risers quickly, too?] Is this,
>as stated above, current-thinking? Understand one could also release, and
>vigorously pump, brake lines; though someone suggested this could create
>canopy-line-burn. Also, understand a handy hook knife could be used to remove
>the offending line.

All of the above are reasonable approaches to dealing with a lineover on your reserve parachute. (Hookknife usage is unlikely though.) However, most lineovers on main parachutes that do not clear themselves will not clear by pumping on them, and doing that may eat up altitude.

What do you mean by the hook knife usage, Bill? I thought that was exactly the reason we carried them?

[kpipes22 0]

I agree with the first responder: I am too new into sport and should be paying specific attention to what my instructors are teaching. And, that I do not have enough experience to be thinking "too far ahead."

And, I certainly agree with Chuck, when he says "how come I am not thinking about cutaway?"
As soon as I posted my original question, I realized I had not mentioned cutaway, and I should have.

I was just asking a question that I thought was interesting from seeing a Post back from 2002. Thank you all for generous, helpful discussion! I have a lot to learn.

Keith

"You can't overcome weakness by fighting it,
or by thinking your way out of it:
Evolution doesn't work that way . . .
You overcome weakness by leaving it behind you!" ~ Stuart Wilde ~

[billvon 2,379]

>What do you mean by the hook knife usage, Bill?

It is unlikely that you will be able to do anything useful with your hookknife. During tests, a current AFF-I, who was jumping a large canopy with a known malfunction, and who had a hookknife, was unable to cut the offending line to clear the mal. If an instructor who is planning to do that, on a line he himself selected for cutting, can't pull it off, it is unlikely that a jumper who is not expecting it will be able to do so.

Not that it's a bad idea to try - you have the rest of your life to accomplish the task, and you will be highly motivated. But it is a low probability avenue of last resort.

[rwieder 0]

Piss poor plastic hook knife probably. The 3 i carry with me will cut through the harness. I carry one on each hip and a hog hunting knife on my chest strap.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[aresye 0]

I always thought we carried hook knives as a last resort, in the event we have a line-over or similar malfunction on our reserve.

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

[chuckakers 369]

Quote

I have a lot to learn.

We all do. If you ever stop learning in this sport, it's time to quit.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[pilotdave 0]

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Piss poor plastic hook knife probably. The 3 i carry with me will cut through the harness. I carry one on each hip and a hog hunting knife on my chest strap.

No problem with the knife itself, he just couldn't identify which line to cut while in a spinning mal... even though he knew which line was causing the lineover before he boarded the plane.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=172047

Dave

[riggerrob 558]

" ... Understand one could also release, and vigorously pump, brake lines; though someone suggested this could create canopy-line-burn ..."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I disagree.

Most line burns occur during opening when there is plenty of tension and speed and pressure.

Hint, I spent yesterday sewing patches on to the top skin of a tandem main.

[billvon 2,379]

>Piss poor plastic hook knife probably.

Nope. The problem wasn't the knife; he couldn't even identify the line. Most people underestimate the difficulty in finding the line, getting it in range, getting their knife around it and cutting it. When spinning wildly under a malfunctioning main, things that seem easy on the ground are considerably harder.

>The 3 i carry with me will cut through the harness. I carry one on each hip
>and a hog hunting knife on my chest strap.

That's great. But in general cutting the wrong things is even worse than not cutting the right thing.

[jsreznor 0]

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That's great. But in general cutting the wrong things is even worse than not cutting the right thing.

except if......you're cutting away

[yoink 321]

Quote

>Piss poor plastic hook knife probably.

Nope. The problem wasn't the knife; he couldn't even identify the line. Most people underestimate the difficulty in finding the line, getting it in range, getting their knife around it and cutting it. When spinning wildly under a malfunctioning main, things that seem easy on the ground are considerably harder.

>The 3 i carry with me will cut through the harness. I carry one on each hip
>and a hog hunting knife on my chest strap.

That's great. But in general cutting the wrong things is even worse than not cutting the right thing.

True, BUT, the reason (as I was taught) for a hookknife isn't for use on a main. It's a last ditch save on a reserve. A main lineover is a chop.

You'd hope that a linover on your reserve might be a little more docile than on a 9 cell main with linetwists. At least the BASE videos I've seen with lineovers don't show high-G spins. Surely these are more comparable to a reserve lineover than Dereks test?

[billvon 2,379]

>You'd hope that a linover on your reserve might be a little more
>docile than on a 9 cell main with linetwists. At least the BASE videos I've
>seen with lineovers don't show high-G spins. Surely these are more
>comparable to a reserve lineover than Dereks test?

Derek used a PD-170, one of the more docile F-111 canopies out there. It's a good bet that an Optimum 126 (a very common size nowadays) is going to be a lot more violent during a mal than a PD-170.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

Understand one could also release, and vigorously pump, brake lines; though someone suggested this could create canopy-line-burn. Also, understand a handy hook knife could be used to remove the offending line.

But, frankly, the overall goal is to take swift, appropriate action for safest possible landing. A cut line, or a canopy burn, can be easily repaired.

I have not had any so far.

Line over on main: I'd cut it away.
Line over on reserve: I'd try to clear with risers, breaks than cut the line.

[hangdiver 1]

I have personally cleared a lineover on a PD210 9 cell some years ago. I aggressively pulled the offending steering line down to my waist or below about three times before it cleared.
No damage to the canopy was found on inspection.
I was doing air to air canopy video and really needed my main. I'm not recommending this course of action but it worked for me on a big docile canopy. Your mileage may vary.

"Mans got to know his limitations"
Harry Callahan

[erdnarob 1]

I had a line over on the same canopy size, a Sabre 210 which included a double steering line system. I wasn't as lucky as you since when I undid the brakes (my mistake) it started a very fast spin. I had to do a cut away and had a beautiful ride and landing on my PD 193 reserve.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[chuckbrown 0]

Quote

>Piss poor plastic hook knife probably.

Nope. The problem wasn't the knife; he couldn't even identify the line. Most people underestimate the difficulty in finding the line, getting it in range, getting their knife around it and cutting it. When spinning wildly under a malfunctioning main, things that seem easy on the ground are considerably harder.

>The 3 i carry with me will cut through the harness. I carry one on each hip
>and a hog hunting knife on my chest strap.

That's great. But in general cutting the wrong things is even worse than not cutting the right thing.

Amen to that. I know a guy who tried to cut the brake line on a line over & ended up cutting through the entire riser. D'oh!

[topdocker 0]

Yeah, ii's amazing how many people go to the hook knife option when they have never unsheathed a knife under canopy.

Saw one guy sitting in the 206 pull out his hook knife while fooling around on the way to altitude. Unfortunately, he cut his chest strap in two as he drew his weapon. The rest of us were laughing our asses off as we left him belted in behind the pilot!

One woman I knew carried a big ass knife for crw, and when we asked her to show us how big it was, it took her about two of three minutes of work on the ground to get it out. Not much good in the air if you can't get to it.

After twenty years of competing on a crw team, I have only seen a teammate use one once. That's something like 5000 crw dives and seeing one hookknife use by a teammate.

Seen a few uses by static line JM's though!

Would never even think of trying one under a lineover on an rw jump, burning up precious time and altitude when action needs to be taken. Maybe on a crw load, but I seriously doubt it. Reserve repacks are easy and landing a canopy with cut/blown lines can be tricky.

top

Jump more, post less!

[fred 0]

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Seen a few uses by static line JM's though!

That's why I thought we had one... to cutaway people being dragged from the plane, or to cutaway a rig on an injured person lying on the ground. I don't expect it to be much use in freefall.

[demoknite 0]

How would you have answered the question without looking at his profile?

[Dittodogg 0]

I am a low #jumper so take this with a grain of salt!

I was jumping a fusion 210 wit ha wingloading of 1:1.

On my 77th jump I had a lineover after getting out on a really bad spot (over a few miles of trees)

I didnt notice it at first and had already stowed my brakes& collapsed my slider. I tried to clear it by pumping the brakes. That didnt do anything but make me lose altitude. The canopy was flying relitavely straight and a I even considered landing it like that! I decided to chop my main at 2000ft.... not sure why I waited till then. I chopped it went for a stable body position and my rsl beat me to my reserve handle. I was able to make it back to the DZ and found my canopy soon after that,
I was questioned by several experienced jumpers on why I didnt cut the line.... I really didnt even think about it and now Im glad I didnt.

Just my .02 But hell im just a pissant!

Team Dirty Sanchez #455,
Muff Brother #4197,
SCR #14847, DPH -8,
Dude #5150