Gawain 0 #51 March 14, 2007 QuoteWe need to not let death catch up to us. Therein lies your problem. To offer a great quote: "On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero." I don't do this sport to cheat death.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #52 March 14, 2007 ***Am I being close minded? Yes. I really am not interested in seeing let alone hearing of any more people dying in this sport. I have had enough. Quote Take up bowling. Sounds like skydiving is not for you. you have 80 something jumps in 2 years, you have lost friends and dont want to lose anymore and dont want to hear any more have died and you may be the next person to go in. ( i hope not ). The thing is, if you are not prepared for the unfortunate you should call it the end and move on to a new chapter in your life. Have you accepted that you could die, or worse injurre yourself so badly that the rest of your life could suck? I doubt you have. I might sound hard, i dont mean it personally. There have a been a few times when i got nervous and on the plane ride up said, oh well, i accept that i could die on this jump or i may injure myself and i accept that. It took me a while to accept that. You are in a sport where you throw yourself out of a plane and speed towards the earth at speeds you are not allowed to do on land in any way shape or form. You may die doing this and i am sure if you keep with it their will be many deaths and horrible accidents you will either see or you will know of people that it happened to. If you cant handle that seriously, go and do something you can before you regret doing this at all. Now dont come into this excellent community and bad mouth the worlds biggest, busiest and greatest dropzone to make yourself feel better. If you never entered this high-risk sport where people die you would not have friends that have died skydiving and would not be bitching about a dropzone. On the other hand, if you are bitching about eloy cause the best in the world come together there and make this sport what it is and that scares you, why dont you got to a little cessna dropzone where there are only a couple of canopies in the sky? I feel for you mate, but you have no right bitching about Eloy. This is what skydiving is and people dying is the unfortunate downside of the greatest experience in the world. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites greybeard 0 #53 March 14, 2007 The toll taken upon the shoulders of dz operators and employees, following any injuries are too personal to describe. It might do everyone well, to reflect on how, we each might respond to the onslot of rhetoric and inuendo that always floods these forums. We often see 'vibes' sent out to the victims and families, but rarely any condolence to the infrastructure of people who feel terribly responsible (unjustly) for any part in any mishap. I have never seen a post that states, "Damn sorry somebody chose your home or workplace to expire, for whatever reason". And how about, "You must be feeling pulled in many different directions, regards your home, your job, your friends, etc." Empathy. Just a thought. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MajorDad 0 #54 March 14, 2007 This isn't lawnbowling. This is skydiving. With modern and appropriate equipment, proper training, good attitude, some aptitude and staying within the limits of one's experience, a skydiver can reduce the risk of leaving an aircraft in flight. However there are risks involved with skydiving and if you stay with it long enough, you will see or know someone who dies making a mistake. You will even see or know someone who dies without making an obvious mistake or is taken out by someone elses mistake. If you cant accept the fact that you can die skydiving without making a mistake on your part or by being taken out through the stupidity of others, quit - you don't understand the risks you assume when you sign that waiver and get on that plane. Sometimes bad things happen to good people through no fault of their own or though the actions of others. Sometimes someone just has a bad day where an error in judgment that they got away with many times before bites them bigtime. My heart goes out to the families and friends of the deceased from Friday's accident at Eloy. My heart also goes out to the staff at Eloy and others who help deal with the accident and the dead or dying. It is very hard on the staff and the first responders. For those who haven't done it, talk to those of us who have. There is a reason why some of us fossils get a little preachy at times. Mostly because over the years, we had to deal with the results of people who wouldn't treat skydiving with the respect that the risks demand. I have jumped at Eloy many times over the years and wouldn't hesitate to jump there again. It is one of the best operations in the world for skydiving. The people who work and hang out there are some of the best people it has been my pleasure to meet and I am by far the better person for it. I look forward to jumping at Eloy again and I am a little jealous of some friends of mine who are making the journey there this coming weekend. They will have a great time (Again...) Blue Skies, Major Dad CSPA D-579 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #55 March 14, 2007 Quote We need to not let death catch up to us........ I do know that I have not gone to my last Skydiver funeral..............unfortunately. She flies faster than you.. and "the sound of her wings" is one awaiting everyone.. welcome to life, I'm sorry you blame Eloy for waking you up to it....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dazzle 0 #56 March 14, 2007 Might there be something in this that is worth considering rather than immediately dismissing it. Comparing Eloys statistics with Empuriabravas on www.skydivingfatalities.info shows 19 vs 8. Both of these are very large, very busy dropzones doing a comparable number of jumps per year (I believe that Empuria was 130000+ jumps last year, I don't know Eloys numbers) with a large number of the jumpers being visitors rather than regular "club" jumpers. Should we not consider if there is a way of improving the DZ. For starters having the 2 landing areas at right angles to each other can cause a conflict in the setup points if the winds is in a particular direction. The first jumper down set the landing direction rule can cause problems if a jumper spirals down and sets up against the direction most people are set up for. Both of these scenarios happened while I was there last year. No real problem caused as everyone was aware but the dz setup didn't help the issue. edit to fix clicky - Craig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #57 March 14, 2007 QuoteMight there be something in this that is worth considering rather than immediately dismissing it. Comparing Eloys statistics with Empuriabravas on www.skydivefatalieies.info shows 19 vs 8. Both of these are very large, very busy dropzones doing a comparable number of jumps per year (I believe that Empuria was 130000+ jumps last year, I don't know Eloys numbers) with a large number of the jumpers being visitors rather than regular "club" jumpers. Should we not consider if there is a way of improving the DZ. When Skydive Chicago was in the last gasps of its bad stretch, I did a simple Poisson calculation on it just being "bad luck" (otherwise known as chance). The probability was pretty damned low. Since then, I bet it's averaged itself out. Similarly, Eloy seems at a glance to be in the throes of a bad stretch, and 4 fatalities in 3 incidents in 2 months magnifies the situation...but I bet it also distorts the view. While it can be worthwhile to see if there's an institutional problem, it's also possible that it's just chance, like flipping heads 10 times in a row. Only time will tell, and the unrelated aspects of this most recent incident suggest we might not want to jump to conclusions. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ragnarok 0 #58 March 17, 2007 So, I just don't want to jump at Eloy again. I will still skydive. 2 years and 80 jumps. Well, I am currently serving active duty in the Army. I work 12 hour shifts. When the plane crashed, I slowed down. Especially after I crashed the motorcycle. I will get past 100 jumps this year, maybe even wrap my hands around a coach rating. Still won't jump at Eloy, though. The one thing my friends associate with me is that I don't have issues with fear. I live for adrenaline - skydiving has been the best thing for that. That and the amazing people I have had the fortune to call my friends. I am having a hard time believing that no one else feels the way I do................._________________________________________ Twin Otter N203-Echo,29 July 2006 Cessna P206 N2537X, 19 April 2008 Blue Skies Forever Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWFlyer 2 #59 March 17, 2007 If I believed there was anything actually *wrong* at Eloy that contributed to those fatalities, I might be inclined to agree with you. But I don't. Eloy's had a streak of bad ju-ju. I'll be there in April for the Easter Boogie having a great time and learning a lot as usual."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RkyMtnHigh 0 #60 March 17, 2007 QuoteSo, I just don't want to jump at Eloy again. I will still skydive. 2 years and 80 jumps. Well, I am currently serving active duty in the Army. I work 12 hour shifts. When the plane crashed, I slowed down. Especially after I crashed the motorcycle. I will get past 100 jumps this year, maybe even wrap my hands around a coach rating. Still won't jump at Eloy, though. The one thing my friends associate with me is that I don't have issues with fear. I live for adrenaline - skydiving has been the best thing for that. That and the amazing people I have had the fortune to call my friends. I am having a hard time believing that no one else feels the way I do................. Check out the stats of every dz that you are interested in jumping at...you might be surprised to see based on volume of jumpers year round and the number of incidents...just a challenge that I propose to you...you will be definitely interested in what you find....it is something that you accept or don't to continue to be part of this sport. It's important to have your head on a swivel at all times at any dz...so don't single out Eloy. Good rule of thumb is to assume that other jumpers do not see you...and kick your feet or something to communicate to them that you see them and make sure that they see you as well..that's what I do anyway. It's just as simple as the Check In...Check Out...in AFF..Let's get Ready to Skydive..Ready? O.K.!!! Just open your field of view...that's all _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigway 4 #61 March 17, 2007 Quote don't have issues with fear. Is that not what this thread is about? Being scared of one of the greatest dropzones this world has. I think it is a real shame you dont want to jump there again. You are going to miss out on most of the greatest skydiving events and moments. You need to believe that people dont feel the same way as you do cause they know the maths, more parachutes mean bigger risks. Kind of like more cars on the road me4an more motorbike accidents. All good though mate, your choice not to jump at this dz, I just think that you have no right to slam a dropzone when they probably do thousands more loads a year than the majority of dropzones throughout the world. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflysteve 0 #62 March 17, 2007 Eloy is a great DZ,first trip there a couple of years ago did 120 jumps in 12 days. Thought it was a super safe place,great staff,great load organising just an awesome experience.It was the Alaskan/Canadian Arizona invasion really busy but all the staff just wanted us up in the air having fun. Shame you will miss out on one great skydiving experience. There is always Golf but if you look into that a lot of people die doing that too!Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ragnarok 0 #63 March 17, 2007 I am not scared of Eloy. I won't go into combat without a clean weapon and my body armor. Yea, there are risks. I accept them. But with the canopy traffic issues, I would rather jump elsewhere. I can only do so much to keep myself safe without having to worry about someone burning into me on a high performance landing. I fly a slower canopy and try to be one of the last to land, so I am not in anyone elses way. Funny, I still have a jump ticket in my log book from Eloy. My parents live about 40 minutes away from Eloy. Maybe my mind will change in the coming months - I never want to be close minded about anything. It has been more that I could imagine these past 6 months. I have known 6 people that have died in this sport. Kinda makes me think of being in Iraq, though there was alot more death........ After the plane crash, all I wanted was for Quantum Leap to open again - and two amazing people did just that, right around Christmas (go figure) ----- Maybe I can ask for a fatality free season as well......_________________________________________ Twin Otter N203-Echo,29 July 2006 Cessna P206 N2537X, 19 April 2008 Blue Skies Forever Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #64 March 17, 2007 QuoteYea, there are risks. I accept them. But with the canopy traffic issues, I would rather jump elsewhere. What makes you think that canopy traffic is not an issue at every dropzone in the world? News flash for ya - it is. What makes you think that the exact same thing couldn't happen at the dropzone you jump at? News flash for ya - it can. Your logic makes as much sense as mine would if I said that I'll never jump at Quantum Leap because they had a plane crash. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyangel2 2 #65 March 17, 2007 QuoteSo, I just don't want to jump at Eloy again. Fine with me, one less person standing in line in front of me buying tickets or manifesting.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freefallfreak 0 #66 March 17, 2007 A-men... TripleF "Upon seeing the shadow of a pigeon, one must resist the urge to look up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DJL 232 #67 March 17, 2007 QuoteSo, I just don't want to jump at Eloy again. I will still skydive. 2 years and 80 jumps. Well, I am currently serving active duty in the Army. I work 12 hour shifts. When the plane crashed, I slowed down. Especially after I crashed the motorcycle. I will get past 100 jumps this year, maybe even wrap my hands around a coach rating. Still won't jump at Eloy, though. The one thing my friends associate with me is that I don't have issues with fear. I live for adrenaline - skydiving has been the best thing for that. That and the amazing people I have had the fortune to call my friends. I am having a hard time believing that no one else feels the way I do................. Hey Brother, don't fool yourself into thinking that this decision makes your world safer. Other than that, I don't get why everyone is giving you grief. You've set a standard for a DZ and this one fails the test. But I'm looking forward to the next time I'm at Eloy. It's a fun DZ and to me it's as safe as any other."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slotperfect 7 #68 March 17, 2007 People have personal limits. I actually teach and encourage them. I also encourage people to stretch their personal limits with a "crawl-walk-run" progression in a safe and fairly comfortable set of conditions (coaching, etc.). Despite the best of encouragement, some people are just not comfortable in certain situations and don't want to learn how to get that way. People like that sometimes choose not to skydive at very bust dropzones with multiple landing areas and busy skies filled with jumpers from multi-place turbine aircraft. They do so because they are not comfortable putting themselves in that environment, and I respect their choice. BUT - their decision comes from within. You have chosen to abstain from jumping at Eloy, which of course is your choice. If you chose not to jump there because doing so exceeds your own personal limits, that is absolutely fine. But that is not the case, it seems. Your choice was to use four recent tragic fatalities there as a soap box to announce your choice not to jump at Eloy a la Scarlett O'Hara ("I'll never go hungry again!") here in this public forum. You then add to it with an incredibly ironic reference to the incredibly sad Twin Otter crash at Quantum Leap. I have never been there, but the deceased pilot's brother is a friend of mine. I will not speak ill of Quantum Leap because of that incident - I know nothing at all about the DZ. I would also not hesitate to skydive there, without worries of the airworthiness of the aircraft. I won't let that accident form my opinion of the DZ. You also say you have no issue with fear. To me this is the most puzzling of your remarks. I really hope for your sake that you respect the danger of this sport. Forsaking that respect leads to complacency which has needlessly killed countless skydivers - a tragedy you seem to support preventing at all costs. I have lost friends, and I miss them. When they died, I changed so that I could keep the same from happening to me and set an example for others so they might remain as safe as possible. I learned from their mistakes, and my longevity in the sport is in part because of that gift they gave me. In my opinion, your avoidance of Eloy because of the recent fatalities is unfounded. I think you are plainly uncomfortable stretching your own personal limits as I mentioned above, and are somehow trying to justify it by waving your banner of boycott in the forums. Eloy is an incredible place; the friendships I have there are priceless to me. It is one of the most professional skydiving operations I have ever seen. Despite my experience level when I first jumped there, I recognized the need to fit myself into the pattern there as safely as possible. I asked questions, made some changes, and have never had an issue - nor have I gotten in anyone's way with my big canopies. The skills I learned there dealing with that traffic I have lifted and shifted to my own drop zone and EVERY other I have visited. If I had shyed away from jumping there, I would have missed out on developing those skills, which would be a shame. Do yourself a favor . . . take a look at what is at the heart of your decision and pursue steps to stretch your own limits to deal with it. It will make you a better skydiver, and a safer one. It will give you knowledge you can pass on to others to forward the sport, rather than inviting people to carry an online picket sign.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ragnarok 0 #69 March 20, 2007 Scarlet O'Hara is a false paralell. Take riding motorcycles. I live to ride agressively. I will not, however weave in and out of traffic at high speed. I will save the knee-dragging for the track and keep to the back country roads - out of traffic. I will not ride with squids. Dragons tail, Deal's Gap (sort of an Eloy for motorcycles) is hot with idioits. I won't ride there because of this reason. It is a great place to ride - it has just become unsafe due to the ammount of stupidity that occurs there. I would compare a swooper doing a high performance landing at a new DZ in traffic to a stunter weaving in and out of traffic. If you ever have a chance to go to a motorcycle track, you will see a rider or two with a t-shirt over their leathers. That means that they are riding for the first time at a track. We know how to avoid those riders. They are alower than the rest of us and we give them room. I respect the dangers of skydiving. I have no problems stretching my personal limits. I am not carrying an online picket sign. I can accept risk. I cannot, however take unnecessary risk. If I want to endanger myself, I will. I will not endanger others. If other people are being stupid, I will avoid them. Quantum Leap is my home DZ. I had been in the sport a year when the plane crashed. I will fly with Scott ANYTIME. Eloy is an awesome place, I won't deny that. I just don't want to jump there......_________________________________________ Twin Otter N203-Echo,29 July 2006 Cessna P206 N2537X, 19 April 2008 Blue Skies Forever Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Duckwater 0 #70 March 20, 2007 Perris and Eloy are the two SAFEST dropzones in my opinion. Reason 1 - Wisdom Abounds - Both dropzones have a wealth of wisdom and advice, advice and wisdom that, if taken in and heeded, it will probably save your life and prevent you from an injury. I was somehow smart enough to seek out the people that have skydived for years, were respected and asked them for advice. It was eagerly given and it was priceless. The wisdom and experience at these dropzones are priceless and free, but you have to seek it. Reason 2 - Options - I have never been at a DZ where the consequences of a bad spot would be landing in trees or water. Perris and Eloy have unlimited outs, you have to be smart enough to use them if there is any doubt. And, if you want to stay clear of other canopies to reduce the mid-air risk, all it costs is a little walk. Reason 3 - Oversight - Don't be fooled by the number of accidents. These dropzones are hella busy all year long. Im guessing the accident per jump ratio is below average. I know the DZO at Perris has great oversight and I have seen plenty of people grounded. But, sometimes someones first stupid move is their last. They cannot be anything but reactive. Reason 4 - Lack of traffic - There are amazingly few VFR incursions into the DZ, expecially at Perris. Eloy is remote and Perris has a natural barrier, the Ortegas, that people must fly around. Both are well established and known by most pilots. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gonzalesna 0 #71 March 20, 2007 In addition to your 4th reason, there is March ARB (Air Force Reserve Base) right up the road, and commercial traffic must be above a certain altitude to pass over the airspace or they must go around. Perris and the base communicate very well, and therefore there are times in Perris where the rides to altitude will be delayed due to inbound aircraft for the base. I love jumping at Perris. The information available is staggering... the perfect example is dust devils. I see them all the time during the spring and summer months, yet I, personally, have never heard of an incident. Part of this is due to shared knowledge throughout the dropzone. I'm sure that those under canopy are helping each other watch out for them too. As far as landing goes, Perris has the strip of grass, but I rarely use it... I like to keep out of everyone's way, as everyone typically tries to land on the grass. I'll take the extra walk, myself. That's what suits me and helps me steer clear of incidents.Some people refrain from beating a dead horse. Personally, I find a myriad of entertainment value when beating it until it becomes a horse-smoothie. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chaoskitty 0 #72 March 20, 2007 If you don't want to jump at Eloy again, you don't have to. You don't have to skydive anywhere again if you don't want to. I can sympathize, because my only experiences at Eloy have included death, grief, and a lot of pain.. but I don't agree that its the dz that caused it. Its the sport. If I couldn't handle it, I wouldn't be in it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #73 March 21, 2007 QuoteI am not scared of Eloy. I won't go into combat without a clean weapon and my body armor. Yea, there are risks. I accept them. But with the canopy traffic issues, I would rather jump elsewhere. so how long is your list of dropzone's your 'not scared of' but wont jump at now??? it has been an ugly week.. but if you pay attention it will illustrate a truth about skydiving to you... but in the end i agree with flyangel.. one less person in the way to manifest.. and one less unaware canopy pilot to worry about as well....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jasonRose 0 #74 March 21, 2007 QuoteQuoteI made my first skydive 2 years ago - changed my life. I want to jump for a long time. Eloy will no longer be a safe place for me to jump. To be fair, I think you have to look at each fatality and decide whether the DZ had a hand in it, maybe from a tight landing area with no outs (certainly *not* the case at Eloy) or lax DZ management (I doubt that applies to Eloy), or whatever. I think all DZs could improve or maintain their safety record by having and enforcing maximum wing loadings, banning high performance landings, requiring AADs and RSLs, etc., but I also think most jumpers, including me, do not want our choices limited like that. No DZ wants a fatality and I think you would have a very hard time finding a DZO who considers them to be acceptable. We are participants in a sport that has very harsh consequences for anyone who screws up severely. I don't think it's reasonable or fair to assume that a DZ is to blame when a jumper's poor judgement or bad luck costs him his life. The DZO is responsible for safe aircraft operation and maintenance and following accepted training practices, but as jumpers we need to accept the responsibility of our choices, no matter how stupid. Walt Well said!! Some day I will have the best staff in the world!!! 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greybeard 0 #53 March 14, 2007 The toll taken upon the shoulders of dz operators and employees, following any injuries are too personal to describe. It might do everyone well, to reflect on how, we each might respond to the onslot of rhetoric and inuendo that always floods these forums. We often see 'vibes' sent out to the victims and families, but rarely any condolence to the infrastructure of people who feel terribly responsible (unjustly) for any part in any mishap. I have never seen a post that states, "Damn sorry somebody chose your home or workplace to expire, for whatever reason". And how about, "You must be feeling pulled in many different directions, regards your home, your job, your friends, etc." Empathy. Just a thought. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MajorDad 0 #54 March 14, 2007 This isn't lawnbowling. This is skydiving. With modern and appropriate equipment, proper training, good attitude, some aptitude and staying within the limits of one's experience, a skydiver can reduce the risk of leaving an aircraft in flight. However there are risks involved with skydiving and if you stay with it long enough, you will see or know someone who dies making a mistake. You will even see or know someone who dies without making an obvious mistake or is taken out by someone elses mistake. If you cant accept the fact that you can die skydiving without making a mistake on your part or by being taken out through the stupidity of others, quit - you don't understand the risks you assume when you sign that waiver and get on that plane. Sometimes bad things happen to good people through no fault of their own or though the actions of others. Sometimes someone just has a bad day where an error in judgment that they got away with many times before bites them bigtime. My heart goes out to the families and friends of the deceased from Friday's accident at Eloy. My heart also goes out to the staff at Eloy and others who help deal with the accident and the dead or dying. It is very hard on the staff and the first responders. For those who haven't done it, talk to those of us who have. There is a reason why some of us fossils get a little preachy at times. Mostly because over the years, we had to deal with the results of people who wouldn't treat skydiving with the respect that the risks demand. I have jumped at Eloy many times over the years and wouldn't hesitate to jump there again. It is one of the best operations in the world for skydiving. The people who work and hang out there are some of the best people it has been my pleasure to meet and I am by far the better person for it. I look forward to jumping at Eloy again and I am a little jealous of some friends of mine who are making the journey there this coming weekend. They will have a great time (Again...) Blue Skies, Major Dad CSPA D-579 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #55 March 14, 2007 Quote We need to not let death catch up to us........ I do know that I have not gone to my last Skydiver funeral..............unfortunately. She flies faster than you.. and "the sound of her wings" is one awaiting everyone.. welcome to life, I'm sorry you blame Eloy for waking you up to it....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dazzle 0 #56 March 14, 2007 Might there be something in this that is worth considering rather than immediately dismissing it. Comparing Eloys statistics with Empuriabravas on www.skydivingfatalities.info shows 19 vs 8. Both of these are very large, very busy dropzones doing a comparable number of jumps per year (I believe that Empuria was 130000+ jumps last year, I don't know Eloys numbers) with a large number of the jumpers being visitors rather than regular "club" jumpers. Should we not consider if there is a way of improving the DZ. For starters having the 2 landing areas at right angles to each other can cause a conflict in the setup points if the winds is in a particular direction. The first jumper down set the landing direction rule can cause problems if a jumper spirals down and sets up against the direction most people are set up for. Both of these scenarios happened while I was there last year. No real problem caused as everyone was aware but the dz setup didn't help the issue. edit to fix clicky - Craig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #57 March 14, 2007 QuoteMight there be something in this that is worth considering rather than immediately dismissing it. Comparing Eloys statistics with Empuriabravas on www.skydivefatalieies.info shows 19 vs 8. Both of these are very large, very busy dropzones doing a comparable number of jumps per year (I believe that Empuria was 130000+ jumps last year, I don't know Eloys numbers) with a large number of the jumpers being visitors rather than regular "club" jumpers. Should we not consider if there is a way of improving the DZ. When Skydive Chicago was in the last gasps of its bad stretch, I did a simple Poisson calculation on it just being "bad luck" (otherwise known as chance). The probability was pretty damned low. Since then, I bet it's averaged itself out. Similarly, Eloy seems at a glance to be in the throes of a bad stretch, and 4 fatalities in 3 incidents in 2 months magnifies the situation...but I bet it also distorts the view. While it can be worthwhile to see if there's an institutional problem, it's also possible that it's just chance, like flipping heads 10 times in a row. Only time will tell, and the unrelated aspects of this most recent incident suggest we might not want to jump to conclusions. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ragnarok 0 #58 March 17, 2007 So, I just don't want to jump at Eloy again. I will still skydive. 2 years and 80 jumps. Well, I am currently serving active duty in the Army. I work 12 hour shifts. When the plane crashed, I slowed down. Especially after I crashed the motorcycle. I will get past 100 jumps this year, maybe even wrap my hands around a coach rating. Still won't jump at Eloy, though. The one thing my friends associate with me is that I don't have issues with fear. I live for adrenaline - skydiving has been the best thing for that. That and the amazing people I have had the fortune to call my friends. I am having a hard time believing that no one else feels the way I do................._________________________________________ Twin Otter N203-Echo,29 July 2006 Cessna P206 N2537X, 19 April 2008 Blue Skies Forever Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #59 March 17, 2007 If I believed there was anything actually *wrong* at Eloy that contributed to those fatalities, I might be inclined to agree with you. But I don't. Eloy's had a streak of bad ju-ju. I'll be there in April for the Easter Boogie having a great time and learning a lot as usual."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RkyMtnHigh 0 #60 March 17, 2007 QuoteSo, I just don't want to jump at Eloy again. I will still skydive. 2 years and 80 jumps. Well, I am currently serving active duty in the Army. I work 12 hour shifts. When the plane crashed, I slowed down. Especially after I crashed the motorcycle. I will get past 100 jumps this year, maybe even wrap my hands around a coach rating. Still won't jump at Eloy, though. The one thing my friends associate with me is that I don't have issues with fear. I live for adrenaline - skydiving has been the best thing for that. That and the amazing people I have had the fortune to call my friends. I am having a hard time believing that no one else feels the way I do................. Check out the stats of every dz that you are interested in jumping at...you might be surprised to see based on volume of jumpers year round and the number of incidents...just a challenge that I propose to you...you will be definitely interested in what you find....it is something that you accept or don't to continue to be part of this sport. It's important to have your head on a swivel at all times at any dz...so don't single out Eloy. Good rule of thumb is to assume that other jumpers do not see you...and kick your feet or something to communicate to them that you see them and make sure that they see you as well..that's what I do anyway. It's just as simple as the Check In...Check Out...in AFF..Let's get Ready to Skydive..Ready? O.K.!!! Just open your field of view...that's all _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #61 March 17, 2007 Quote don't have issues with fear. Is that not what this thread is about? Being scared of one of the greatest dropzones this world has. I think it is a real shame you dont want to jump there again. You are going to miss out on most of the greatest skydiving events and moments. You need to believe that people dont feel the same way as you do cause they know the maths, more parachutes mean bigger risks. Kind of like more cars on the road me4an more motorbike accidents. All good though mate, your choice not to jump at this dz, I just think that you have no right to slam a dropzone when they probably do thousands more loads a year than the majority of dropzones throughout the world. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflysteve 0 #62 March 17, 2007 Eloy is a great DZ,first trip there a couple of years ago did 120 jumps in 12 days. Thought it was a super safe place,great staff,great load organising just an awesome experience.It was the Alaskan/Canadian Arizona invasion really busy but all the staff just wanted us up in the air having fun. Shame you will miss out on one great skydiving experience. There is always Golf but if you look into that a lot of people die doing that too!Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ragnarok 0 #63 March 17, 2007 I am not scared of Eloy. I won't go into combat without a clean weapon and my body armor. Yea, there are risks. I accept them. But with the canopy traffic issues, I would rather jump elsewhere. I can only do so much to keep myself safe without having to worry about someone burning into me on a high performance landing. I fly a slower canopy and try to be one of the last to land, so I am not in anyone elses way. Funny, I still have a jump ticket in my log book from Eloy. My parents live about 40 minutes away from Eloy. Maybe my mind will change in the coming months - I never want to be close minded about anything. It has been more that I could imagine these past 6 months. I have known 6 people that have died in this sport. Kinda makes me think of being in Iraq, though there was alot more death........ After the plane crash, all I wanted was for Quantum Leap to open again - and two amazing people did just that, right around Christmas (go figure) ----- Maybe I can ask for a fatality free season as well......_________________________________________ Twin Otter N203-Echo,29 July 2006 Cessna P206 N2537X, 19 April 2008 Blue Skies Forever Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #64 March 17, 2007 QuoteYea, there are risks. I accept them. But with the canopy traffic issues, I would rather jump elsewhere. What makes you think that canopy traffic is not an issue at every dropzone in the world? News flash for ya - it is. What makes you think that the exact same thing couldn't happen at the dropzone you jump at? News flash for ya - it can. Your logic makes as much sense as mine would if I said that I'll never jump at Quantum Leap because they had a plane crash. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #65 March 17, 2007 QuoteSo, I just don't want to jump at Eloy again. Fine with me, one less person standing in line in front of me buying tickets or manifesting.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freefallfreak 0 #66 March 17, 2007 A-men... TripleF "Upon seeing the shadow of a pigeon, one must resist the urge to look up." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #67 March 17, 2007 QuoteSo, I just don't want to jump at Eloy again. I will still skydive. 2 years and 80 jumps. Well, I am currently serving active duty in the Army. I work 12 hour shifts. When the plane crashed, I slowed down. Especially after I crashed the motorcycle. I will get past 100 jumps this year, maybe even wrap my hands around a coach rating. Still won't jump at Eloy, though. The one thing my friends associate with me is that I don't have issues with fear. I live for adrenaline - skydiving has been the best thing for that. That and the amazing people I have had the fortune to call my friends. I am having a hard time believing that no one else feels the way I do................. Hey Brother, don't fool yourself into thinking that this decision makes your world safer. Other than that, I don't get why everyone is giving you grief. You've set a standard for a DZ and this one fails the test. But I'm looking forward to the next time I'm at Eloy. It's a fun DZ and to me it's as safe as any other."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #68 March 17, 2007 People have personal limits. I actually teach and encourage them. I also encourage people to stretch their personal limits with a "crawl-walk-run" progression in a safe and fairly comfortable set of conditions (coaching, etc.). Despite the best of encouragement, some people are just not comfortable in certain situations and don't want to learn how to get that way. People like that sometimes choose not to skydive at very bust dropzones with multiple landing areas and busy skies filled with jumpers from multi-place turbine aircraft. They do so because they are not comfortable putting themselves in that environment, and I respect their choice. BUT - their decision comes from within. You have chosen to abstain from jumping at Eloy, which of course is your choice. If you chose not to jump there because doing so exceeds your own personal limits, that is absolutely fine. But that is not the case, it seems. Your choice was to use four recent tragic fatalities there as a soap box to announce your choice not to jump at Eloy a la Scarlett O'Hara ("I'll never go hungry again!") here in this public forum. You then add to it with an incredibly ironic reference to the incredibly sad Twin Otter crash at Quantum Leap. I have never been there, but the deceased pilot's brother is a friend of mine. I will not speak ill of Quantum Leap because of that incident - I know nothing at all about the DZ. I would also not hesitate to skydive there, without worries of the airworthiness of the aircraft. I won't let that accident form my opinion of the DZ. You also say you have no issue with fear. To me this is the most puzzling of your remarks. I really hope for your sake that you respect the danger of this sport. Forsaking that respect leads to complacency which has needlessly killed countless skydivers - a tragedy you seem to support preventing at all costs. I have lost friends, and I miss them. When they died, I changed so that I could keep the same from happening to me and set an example for others so they might remain as safe as possible. I learned from their mistakes, and my longevity in the sport is in part because of that gift they gave me. In my opinion, your avoidance of Eloy because of the recent fatalities is unfounded. I think you are plainly uncomfortable stretching your own personal limits as I mentioned above, and are somehow trying to justify it by waving your banner of boycott in the forums. Eloy is an incredible place; the friendships I have there are priceless to me. It is one of the most professional skydiving operations I have ever seen. Despite my experience level when I first jumped there, I recognized the need to fit myself into the pattern there as safely as possible. I asked questions, made some changes, and have never had an issue - nor have I gotten in anyone's way with my big canopies. The skills I learned there dealing with that traffic I have lifted and shifted to my own drop zone and EVERY other I have visited. If I had shyed away from jumping there, I would have missed out on developing those skills, which would be a shame. Do yourself a favor . . . take a look at what is at the heart of your decision and pursue steps to stretch your own limits to deal with it. It will make you a better skydiver, and a safer one. It will give you knowledge you can pass on to others to forward the sport, rather than inviting people to carry an online picket sign.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ragnarok 0 #69 March 20, 2007 Scarlet O'Hara is a false paralell. Take riding motorcycles. I live to ride agressively. I will not, however weave in and out of traffic at high speed. I will save the knee-dragging for the track and keep to the back country roads - out of traffic. I will not ride with squids. Dragons tail, Deal's Gap (sort of an Eloy for motorcycles) is hot with idioits. I won't ride there because of this reason. It is a great place to ride - it has just become unsafe due to the ammount of stupidity that occurs there. I would compare a swooper doing a high performance landing at a new DZ in traffic to a stunter weaving in and out of traffic. If you ever have a chance to go to a motorcycle track, you will see a rider or two with a t-shirt over their leathers. That means that they are riding for the first time at a track. We know how to avoid those riders. They are alower than the rest of us and we give them room. I respect the dangers of skydiving. I have no problems stretching my personal limits. I am not carrying an online picket sign. I can accept risk. I cannot, however take unnecessary risk. If I want to endanger myself, I will. I will not endanger others. If other people are being stupid, I will avoid them. Quantum Leap is my home DZ. I had been in the sport a year when the plane crashed. I will fly with Scott ANYTIME. Eloy is an awesome place, I won't deny that. I just don't want to jump there......_________________________________________ Twin Otter N203-Echo,29 July 2006 Cessna P206 N2537X, 19 April 2008 Blue Skies Forever Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Duckwater 0 #70 March 20, 2007 Perris and Eloy are the two SAFEST dropzones in my opinion. Reason 1 - Wisdom Abounds - Both dropzones have a wealth of wisdom and advice, advice and wisdom that, if taken in and heeded, it will probably save your life and prevent you from an injury. I was somehow smart enough to seek out the people that have skydived for years, were respected and asked them for advice. It was eagerly given and it was priceless. The wisdom and experience at these dropzones are priceless and free, but you have to seek it. Reason 2 - Options - I have never been at a DZ where the consequences of a bad spot would be landing in trees or water. Perris and Eloy have unlimited outs, you have to be smart enough to use them if there is any doubt. And, if you want to stay clear of other canopies to reduce the mid-air risk, all it costs is a little walk. Reason 3 - Oversight - Don't be fooled by the number of accidents. These dropzones are hella busy all year long. Im guessing the accident per jump ratio is below average. I know the DZO at Perris has great oversight and I have seen plenty of people grounded. But, sometimes someones first stupid move is their last. They cannot be anything but reactive. Reason 4 - Lack of traffic - There are amazingly few VFR incursions into the DZ, expecially at Perris. Eloy is remote and Perris has a natural barrier, the Ortegas, that people must fly around. Both are well established and known by most pilots. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gonzalesna 0 #71 March 20, 2007 In addition to your 4th reason, there is March ARB (Air Force Reserve Base) right up the road, and commercial traffic must be above a certain altitude to pass over the airspace or they must go around. Perris and the base communicate very well, and therefore there are times in Perris where the rides to altitude will be delayed due to inbound aircraft for the base. I love jumping at Perris. The information available is staggering... the perfect example is dust devils. I see them all the time during the spring and summer months, yet I, personally, have never heard of an incident. Part of this is due to shared knowledge throughout the dropzone. I'm sure that those under canopy are helping each other watch out for them too. As far as landing goes, Perris has the strip of grass, but I rarely use it... I like to keep out of everyone's way, as everyone typically tries to land on the grass. I'll take the extra walk, myself. That's what suits me and helps me steer clear of incidents.Some people refrain from beating a dead horse. Personally, I find a myriad of entertainment value when beating it until it becomes a horse-smoothie. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaoskitty 0 #72 March 20, 2007 If you don't want to jump at Eloy again, you don't have to. You don't have to skydive anywhere again if you don't want to. I can sympathize, because my only experiences at Eloy have included death, grief, and a lot of pain.. but I don't agree that its the dz that caused it. Its the sport. If I couldn't handle it, I wouldn't be in it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #73 March 21, 2007 QuoteI am not scared of Eloy. I won't go into combat without a clean weapon and my body armor. Yea, there are risks. I accept them. But with the canopy traffic issues, I would rather jump elsewhere. so how long is your list of dropzone's your 'not scared of' but wont jump at now??? it has been an ugly week.. but if you pay attention it will illustrate a truth about skydiving to you... but in the end i agree with flyangel.. one less person in the way to manifest.. and one less unaware canopy pilot to worry about as well....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jasonRose 0 #74 March 21, 2007 QuoteQuoteI made my first skydive 2 years ago - changed my life. I want to jump for a long time. Eloy will no longer be a safe place for me to jump. To be fair, I think you have to look at each fatality and decide whether the DZ had a hand in it, maybe from a tight landing area with no outs (certainly *not* the case at Eloy) or lax DZ management (I doubt that applies to Eloy), or whatever. I think all DZs could improve or maintain their safety record by having and enforcing maximum wing loadings, banning high performance landings, requiring AADs and RSLs, etc., but I also think most jumpers, including me, do not want our choices limited like that. No DZ wants a fatality and I think you would have a very hard time finding a DZO who considers them to be acceptable. We are participants in a sport that has very harsh consequences for anyone who screws up severely. I don't think it's reasonable or fair to assume that a DZ is to blame when a jumper's poor judgement or bad luck costs him his life. The DZO is responsible for safe aircraft operation and maintenance and following accepted training practices, but as jumpers we need to accept the responsibility of our choices, no matter how stupid. Walt Well said!! Some day I will have the best staff in the world!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
