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kkeenan

Bob - Danny Condolence Opinion

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There's probably nothing to do about it after this long, but it's sure tough to deal with the dual condolence thread for Bob Holler and Danny Page.

A lot of folks think Danny was a great guy. However, how great was he to carelessly and stupidly fly into a crowd of canopies, killing both himself and Bob. I personally think he was a self-centered prick, whose last act bore that out completely. I feel sorry that Bob's family has to read about what a great guy DP was while greiving the loss of Bob. This is the equivalent of having the town mayor driving drunk over your child in a school crossing, and then reading how he was a wonderful guy who made a "mistake". A bit hard to swallow.

In my opinion, the two should be seperated.

Kevin Keenan
_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

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Let s/he who has never done anything stupid and/or selfish throw the first stone.



Where to?:P
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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With 227 replies, it is going to be hard to separate the thread. Technically speaking, I can't just start 2 new threads and move each post to the right spot. I can detatch a post to create a new thread and any posts that are linked to that will go with it, but it's impossible to then move more posts that were in the original thread to the new thread. The only thing I could do is lock the existing one and create two new ones. I'd be happy to oblige if that is what people want.
She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

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Perhaps it is a reminder that we are all in this together and together, we must find a solution.

Before the accident.. What Danny did was fairly common. Something you saw way too often.

I don’t disagree that there should be separate threads and you certainly have a right to your opinion but Danny was not Drunk and Bob was not a Child in a Crosswalk. Danny made a horrible mistake that cost both his and Bobs life. The most important thing we can do now is learn from this, take steps top prevent it from happening again and move on.
.

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Perhaps it is a reminder that we are all in this together and together, we must find a solution.

Before the accident.. What Danny did was fairly common. Something you saw way too often.

I don’t disagree that there should be separate threads and you certainly have a right to your opinion but Danny was not Drunk and Bob was not a Child in a Crosswalk. Danny made a horrible mistake that cost both his and Bobs life. The most important thing we can do now is learn from this, take steps top prevent it from happening again and move on.
.




Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

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The fact that I have to read a thread disparaging a good friend of mine after he is dead from some one is pretty annoying.



Yeah, well it could be worse. Maybe I'm a prick, but at least I didn't kill you.
_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

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Not yet anyway...........but obviously by thinking that Danny was just an idiot and a "Selfish-Prick" YOU could NEVER make the same mistake. In fact I bet you have NEVER made a mistake that put anyone else in danger. Right? I'm sure you are infallible. Perfect I'm sure.

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Not yet anyway...........but obviously by thinking that Danny was just an idiot and a "Selfish-Prick" YOU could NEVER make the same mistake. In fact I bet you have NEVER made a mistake that put anyone else in danger. Right? I'm sure you are infallible. Perfect I'm sure.



Theres nothing to be gained by this.
Kevin will let it go because I asked him to. You need to do the same.
Remember your friends...dont fight over their bodies.


bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

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...I bet you have NEVER made a mistake that put anyone else in danger...



I've made my share of mistakes, as we all have. But I'm not known at a dozen DZs for my dangerous behavior.

What we're talking about here is willful endangerment. The only "mistake" was that this time it didn't work out.

But then again, I don't have the winning personality that makes people defend such insanity.
_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

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>However, how great was he to carelessly and stupidly fly into a crowd
>of canopies, killing both himself and Bob. I personally think he was a
>self-centered prick, whose last act bore that out completely.

I don't do 270's in traffic. But that doesn't mean I'll never kill anyone.

When I had about 1500 jumps, I was jumping a friend's Stiletto 107 (which I was NOT ready for) and landing after an AFF. A tandem's family was waiting there. A five year old saw someone land, thought it was his dad, and dashed out to see him - right into my path. I was just leveling out from a 90 degree toggle turn. (I didn't know about front riser turns yet.) I turned hard to go behind him. He saw me and stopped. I did the last thing I could think of doing, which was to flare hard. The canopy popped me up and over him, and I landed hard just past him. The kid started to cry.

If I had hit that kid, and hurt or killed him, would that make me a stupid, careless self-centered prick? Maybe. I know it would be very hard for me to live with. And as a result I changed how I flew when I was near suspect groups of whuffos. But that doesn't mean it couldn't happen again, perhaps with much worse consequences. My landing speeds have only gone up.

There's no question that Danny made a stupid mistake. Does that make him a prick? I don't think so. If he _knew_ he was doing something incredibly risky, like drinking and jumping, or intentionally jumping with a defective canopy and then swooping? Perhaps.

>This is the equivalent of having the town mayor driving drunk over your
> child in a school crossing, and then reading how he was a wonderful guy
>who made a "mistake". A bit hard to swallow.

I think it's more like a town mayor doing 30mph on a road with no speed limit, hitting a kid who ran into the road and killing him. Was he wrong? Yep; the driver is always responsible for not hitting people with his car. Does that make him a stupid, careless self-centered prick? I don't think so.

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You know, this thread really REALLY needs to be deleted..the Bonfire is NOT the place to dicuss this subject.....its pointless. The mods are quick to delete this and that...I am surprised that you (Mods) haven't jumped on this (but participated in it:S)...I can see this thread getting way out of control...put the fire out before it burns down the building.....


Bobbi
A miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude.

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[reply. The mods are quick to delete this and that...I am surprised that you (Mods) haven't jumped on this (but participated in it[crazy
Bobbi



That is kind of amazing isnt it.:(


bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

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I can see this thread getting out of control very easily HOWEVER there is something to be said for speaking very bluntly about this incident, because it doesn't happen often enough. I've been to more than one wake with a giant elephant in the room that everyone sees and no one acknowledges.

There's a tendency to turn dead skydivers into heroes, when the truth is, most of the time they're just regular people who fucked up. Maybe if we start speaking a little more bluntly, less of us will die making the same damn mistakes.

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Maybe if we start speaking a little more bluntly, less of us will die making the same damn mistakes.





And calling a dead man a "self-centered prick" has no place in learning from an incident nor is it even decent. In fact.........in person it would normally get your ass beat. Too bad I am on the opposite side o the planet right now.

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If they are going to discuss the INCIDENT then move the thread to the incident forum. The whole thing just pisses me off.......there are some things that should be discussed face to face, I think this topic would be a perfect example, some topics are worthy or just that important......so many times things get "confused" because someone can't express themselves eloquently enough....and they just sound like assholes.

Bobbi
A miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude.

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There's a tendency to turn dead skydivers into heroes, when the truth is, most of the time they're just regular people who fucked up.



maybe you should consider the number of lives he saved in Afganistan, and other unnamed middle easter countries as a combat controller. Or when he recieved a care package of Tootise roll pops, and gave them to the local children, or the aid he helped deliver in Pakistan after an earthquake, or assisting with evacuation of Katrina evacuees. You mean like that kind of hero?

Or like the kind of hero that is in the military and still has time to get an MBA, and a law degree, and become an accomplished pilot and certified air traffic controller?

yea its terrible. He was my friend, and I live knowing what my friend did. Im learning from it. I only wish I'd gotton to know Bob Holler from all the stories in that thread, I count myself lucky to have read them there. If the two had not been together, I may have never learned of his accomplishments also.
Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

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If they are going to discuss the INCIDENT then move the thread to the incident forum. The whole thing just pisses me off.......there are some things that should be discussed face to face, I think this topic would be a perfect example, some topics are worthy or just that important......so many times things get "confused" because someone can't express themselves eloquently enough....and they just sound like assholes.

Bobbi



Asshole here.

Bobbi, I could not disagree with you more. The type of behavior that caused these two deaths and the people who willfully engage in those behaviors need to be villified. IMO the skydiving community needs to stop tolerating their ego-driven behavior that puts others at risk.

I'd gladly talk with Danny face-to-face, but unfortunately he's dead. We need to stop the behaviors that led to these deaths and we need to not be nice about it.

BTW Kevin, I absolutely agree with you on the condolences thread.

Walt

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