josebaumanndez 0 #1 October 12, 2006 I'm considering buting a rig that has a Bogey reserve in it, but I've never heard of this this thing, and the seller can't seem to tell me a whole lot about it. Would appreciate any input you experts have on this thing. I checked for it in the "Gear" section, not listed. Thanks!--------------------------------------------------------- Everyday's a holiday, every meal's a banquet! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,120 #2 October 12, 2006 It's properly spelled "Bogy." Here is a thread with some information; a search with the right spelling should yield more. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #3 October 12, 2006 QuoteI'm considering buting a rig that has a Bogey reserve in it, but I've never heard of this this thing, and the seller can't seem to tell me a whole lot about it. Would appreciate any input you experts have on this thing. I checked for it in the "Gear" section, not listed. Thanks! I used to pack a rig with one in it. This one seemed OK, but understand that the mfg history is a different story... In my inquiry's I heard tell of canopies being shipped w/ out lines and/or bar tacks. The company also changed hands before it died(?). I have heard NO problems with the canopy that a good rigger would not find. Several of us have copies of the manual if you get the rig and your rigger does not have one. JimAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #4 October 12, 2006 The only square canopy that has ever failed pull testing by me was a Bogy reserve. There are enough negative stories, inlcuding mine that I'd chose something else.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #5 October 12, 2006 QuoteThe only square canopy that has ever failed pull testing by me was a Bogy reserve. There are enough negative stories, inlcuding mine that I'd chose something else. Terry, Isn't that the one with no vertical load tapes just plain ribs? I forget as it's been a long time. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #6 October 13, 2006 QuoteI'm considering buting a rig that has a Bogey reserve in it, but I've never heard of this this thing, and the seller can't seem to tell me a whole lot about it. Would appreciate any input you experts have on this thing. I checked for it in the "Gear" section, not listed. Thanks! I believe that is was made by a company called FTS Technology. The also made the Rascal main if I remember correctly. Long gone out of business. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #7 October 13, 2006 Mick, I don't remember and the canopy is in storage.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #8 October 13, 2006 If I remember right FTS later because APS (Advanced Parachute Systems???). It was based out of Alabama and folded up shop a LONG time ago. They made some odd canopies like 7, 8 and 9 cell canopies. The 8 Cell I still don't get...Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
josebaumanndez 0 #9 October 13, 2006 I'm glad I asked!--------------------------------------------------------- Everyday's a holiday, every meal's a banquet! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #10 October 13, 2006 QuoteIf I remember right FTS later because APS (Advanced Parachute Systems???). It was based out of Alabama and folded up shop a LONG time ago. They made some odd canopies like 7, 8 and 9 cell canopies. The 8 Cell I still don't get... Actually I DID get it... and its sitting on the shelf ... A Lazer-8. Going to take it to the DZ and ask their packers if they would mind packing for me... PRO pack a canopy with TWO sets of lines to the center rib... should be fun to watch. Always remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #11 October 13, 2006 I believe their reserves were the only ones approved/tested for use with just 2 reserve risers. Just a useless tidbit...People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #12 October 13, 2006 QuoteIsn't that the one with no vertical load tapes just plain ribs? Yup. The DZ I'm at has a couple of its static line student rigs still with FTS or APS reserves. The canopies do look very weird and lightweight with no diagonal tapes on the ribs, although to compensate, the longitudinal bottom seams at the line attachments are heavily reinforced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #13 October 13, 2006 Quote I believe their reserves were the only ones approved/tested for use with just 2 reserve risers. You are thinking of Bill Gargano's Hobbit and similar, designs he sold to Strong. The Hobbit was diaper-deployed (no freebag), so could be installed in containers originally set up for 2-riser rounds. FTS/APS designs probably owe more to Mike Furry/Django. That very wide bottom seam was characteristic of Mike's canopies, and is still seen on some Precision canopies in service these days. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #14 October 13, 2006 Boget, Rascal, Lazer, etc. canopies were built by Dave Davenport during the mid-1990s. I helped the Black Forest Parachute Club buy a batch of them when they converted from Para-Commanders to squares in 1987. I jumped all of those canopies before handing them to students. We solved the hard-openign problem by roll-packing, similar to the way I used to roll-pack my Strato-Cloud. Lazers competed directly with Mantas, but were less expensive. I only got one jump on an 8-cell FTS canopy, and it concluded with a stomping a disc. Yes, their construction looks light-weight, but they were one of the first series of canopies to survive TSO C23C testing. Dave managed to piggy back his drop test program on a military program, so most of the drops were done from C-130s. Initially those canopies were built - of F-111 fabric - by FTS, but after Dave got sent to jail (another fascinating story that a federal judge has forbidden him to talk about), the production rights were sold to APS in Texas, who built a few more canopies before halting production. I saw Dave at the last PIA Symposium, but now he is working for Eagle Industries, building pistol holsters, military webb belts, etc. In conclusion, FTS and APS canopies were decent mid-1980s kit. Just don't plan on loading anything built in the 1980s much more than 1:1. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #15 October 14, 2006 The only caveat to your post, Rob, is that I believe you meant to say "mid 80's". I did a lot of the test jumping on FTS parachutes when Dave first started making them at his house and in my dad's loft before he moved to Alpharetta, GA (after he got out of the army). I jumped every single model Dave ever sewed and owned the very second 8-cell parachute he ever sewed. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #16 October 14, 2006 QuoteQuote I believe their reserves were the only ones approved/tested for use with just 2 reserve risers. You are thinking of Bill Gargano's Hobbit and similar, designs he sold to Strong. The Hobbit was diaper-deployed (no freebag), so could be installed in containers originally set up for 2-riser rounds. FTS/APS designs probably owe more to Mike Furry/Django. That very wide bottom seam was characteristic of Mike's canopies, and is still seen on some Precision canopies in service these days. Mark Why would the use of a diaper vs a freebag make a difference to the use on 2 riser rigs? Is it just that the diaper was already included with the canopy, so no other part was needed?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #17 October 14, 2006 QuoteThe only caveat to your post, Rob, is that I believe you meant to say "mid 80's". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are correct Chuck. I meant to say "mid 1980s." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #18 October 14, 2006 Why would the use of a diaper vs a freebag make a difference to the use on 2 riser rigs? Is it just that the diaper was already included with the canopy, so no other part was needed? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To understand this question, you need to understand the generation of skydiving equipment that immediately preceded the introduction of square reserves. During the late 1970s and early 1980s, skydiving manufacturers asked themselves the question "how light can we build this gear and still survive?" Some of them found the answer the hard way! Some "low-speed" round reserves could not survive opening shock, at terminal velocity with fat boys! Similarly, harness manufacturers tried a variety of tricks to save weight on harnesses. One of those tricks was installing only two reserve risers. Sure round reserves flew poorly on two risers, but they did not fly much better on four risers, "and we saved a whole eighth of a pound." For example, a friend gave me an old Racer, but the reserve riser are so short that the connector links are barely inside the reserve container. That Racer has so much Velcro around the reserve container that some riggers refused to pack squares into them out of fear that the freebag would not be able to squeeze out of the tiny opening. The Racer's only saving grace is that Velcro wears out pretty quickly. Hee! Hee! Since a diaper is more likely to sneak out of a Racer, more riggers were willing to pack diapered square reserves into early Racers. Fast forward to 1988, when the acid-mesh era arrived with a vengeance. All of a sudden, hoards of skydivers were frantically rushing to replace their light-weight, low-speed round reserves with squares. Free bags were not available for half of their containers, so anyone who could build square reserves, with diapers AND that could be installed without any sewing on the risers could sell a bundle. You are correct in assuming that diapers are sewn onto canopies. Similarly, I have an old French reserve that has the steering toggles attached to the connector links. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #18 October 14, 2006 Why would the use of a diaper vs a freebag make a difference to the use on 2 riser rigs? Is it just that the diaper was already included with the canopy, so no other part was needed? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To understand this question, you need to understand the generation of skydiving equipment that immediately preceded the introduction of square reserves. During the late 1970s and early 1980s, skydiving manufacturers asked themselves the question "how light can we build this gear and still survive?" Some of them found the answer the hard way! Some "low-speed" round reserves could not survive opening shock, at terminal velocity with fat boys! Similarly, harness manufacturers tried a variety of tricks to save weight on harnesses. One of those tricks was installing only two reserve risers. Sure round reserves flew poorly on two risers, but they did not fly much better on four risers, "and we saved a whole eighth of a pound." For example, a friend gave me an old Racer, but the reserve riser are so short that the connector links are barely inside the reserve container. That Racer has so much Velcro around the reserve container that some riggers refused to pack squares into them out of fear that the freebag would not be able to squeeze out of the tiny opening. The Racer's only saving grace is that Velcro wears out pretty quickly. Hee! Hee! Since a diaper is more likely to sneak out of a Racer, more riggers were willing to pack diapered square reserves into early Racers. Fast forward to 1988, when the acid-mesh era arrived with a vengeance. All of a sudden, hoards of skydivers were frantically rushing to replace their light-weight, low-speed round reserves with squares. Free bags were not available for half of their containers, so anyone who could build square reserves, with diapers AND that could be installed without any sewing on the risers could sell a bundle. You are correct in assuming that diapers are sewn onto canopies. Similarly, I have an old French reserve that has the steering toggles attached to the connector links. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #19 October 15, 2006 Shit, you have an SOS? Burn it and save a life, perhaps even your own. Lee Yes, there is a story there.Lee [email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #20 October 15, 2006 Quote Shit, you have an SOS? Burn it and save a life, perhaps even your own. Lee Yes, there is a story there. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let's hear your story. We are listening. Maybe we should ask the moderators to split SOS debate into a separate thread. By the way, please complete your profile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #21 October 16, 2006 It’s an absolutely classic Quincy story. I used to work there in the rigging tailor with Wag. You wouldn’t believe the cross section of rigging we would see come through there every year. The stuff from out side the U.S. was always the best. This guy was from Guatemala. Showed up with a bunch of his buddies wanting repacks. Normally they just all get together one night over stakes and a case of beer and try to figure it out for them selves. They were very… creative. I did the Reflex, it had a fixed loop of hand tied type 2a and, I think it was Allen, did the Mirage. Nice brand new G2 but the damn thing had an SOS in it. I will take a moment and describe for the benefit of those not Fermi lure with this fine example of state of the art aeronautical engineering. Five cells. Aspect ratio, 1.25. That’s square plus one. By the time it inflated it was square. A, B, and C lines. No D lines. No cross ports. Cross ports? What are those? The break lines do not go through the rings on the riser. They stow to the rapid link by chain linking and tack to the riser. There is a small peace of type twelve with a grommet to act as a keeper for the toggle. It loops on the Rapped link. It appears to be a direct and exact copy of the original Unit. The frogs copied every thing but I digress. Let us simply say that it was a thing of beauty and the envy of all that saw it. Oh, by the way he had it hooked up all wrong with risers crossed and lines looped around every thing and back to the link. So we got it hooked up straight, line checked and repacked and Allen got the honor of signing it. Boy am I glad I got stuck with the Reflex, and I thought I’d lost the flip. And he goes off happy as can be. Skip ahead two days. There is a banging on the back door of the trailer. Wag calls for them to come in. Bangs some more. Wag curses there def ass, they must be def not to hear him bellow, and rips the door open. There he is the poor Guatemalan with his reserve in his arms, soaking wet, covered in mud, and his hair, jump suit and canopy are covered in green seaweed. His appearance was rather shell shocked. He says, “I have a problem.” as he holds the dripping mass up to Wag. Wag, “No shit you have a problem. Don’t bring it in here!” First we hosed him down with a hose out back, couldn’t really get any worse and we need to get the worst of the mud and sea weed off him and his “gear”. Then we had him drop all his shit in the back of a box truck out back. We hung it up there so It could start to dry. We wouldn’t even let him bring it in yet. Only then would we let him come in. That’s when we started to get the story. I’m trying to remember the exact details. He was on a sit dive. I don’t recall if he had a premature on the reserve or could not find his pilot chute, stuffed in the pocket. Either way it was a high speed deployment on the reserve. The chain link on the right side blew on opening. The load then went to the T 12 tab which then broke. That side of the tail went all the way up and the right side of the canopy surged forward running over its leading edge folding under that side of the canopy. With no cross port the canopy could not reinflate. Three cells rolled under, there are only five, and the toggle on the other side could not control the spin. With out D lines pulling the right riser did not have enough authority to reinflate that side especially with the violence of the spin which by now was almost a streamer; his body could not keep up. So he goes in under less then half of what would have been a POS even if it was fully inflated and would have been hard pressed to land him anyways. Quincy, Corn fields and hard ground as far as the eye can see. He lands in the one small pond that is in the middle of this farmer’s corn field. The only possible place he could have survived. He planted in the mud and weeds in the bottom of the middle of the pond. He gets back to the surface some how manages to make it to the edge and crawl out of the pond. I don’t know how long he walked around in those fields before he made his way back to the airport. He just wondered in and walked up across the field to our back door. When I saw him he was still wearing his rig, the canopy was in a dripping pile in his arms and the lines were dragging behind him. I have no clue how far he walked. When we finally got the story out of him he was still looking rather shell shocked and staring at things like a zombie. I gave the poor guy the best advice I had. I told him to first: Go take a shower. Do not remove your jump suit just start with it on. Second: Go to the big tent and get very, very drunk. Third: when you do wake up tomorrow, plan on sleeping in see step two, come see us in the afternoon and we will talk about getting you a brand new canopy. We have a Raven with your name on it. The last I saw of him that evening he was following my advice to the letter. He did come in the next day and we did sell him that Raven. I have to say that as bleary eyed as he was, even in the afternoon he was still suffering the after effects of step two, he still look better and was more coherent then the day before. And that’s all I know about SOS’s. The story ran long and I’m sorry but you asked for it so there it is. I just could not bring myself condense it any more it’s one of my favorites. LeeLee [email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 13 #22 October 16, 2006 Based on the comments made here by some very knowledgable folks, I would steer clear of it. Kevin K._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
josebaumanndez 0 #23 October 17, 2006 QuoteBased on the comments made here by some very knowledgable folks, I would steer clear of it. Kevin K.QuoteNeedless to say, I have!--------------------------------------------------------- Everyday's a holiday, every meal's a banquet! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
