Hypoxia at 21000 ft.

[kallend 1,623]

www.turnermedical.com/ has pulse oximeters on sale for $150 from time to time.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sundevil777 93]

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About the only time you'd stay at higher altitudes is if you were doing a trans-oceanic flight with no place to divert to; in such cases, it might be critical to remain at higher altitudes to have enough range to reach an airport.

The chemical oxygen generators don't last long at all. Very few airlines chose to equip their planes with a bottled oxygen system, and even those might not last very long. Out of all the airlines that had ordered 777s as of '95, only British Airways and one other chose had chosen that for their 777s.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 2,396]

>does anybody ask questions when they see a gas bottle in your luggage?

You can transport them by air but they have to be empty. You can refill them from any aviation/welding tank with a transfiller hose.

>With regard to pre-breathing, are you actually breathing pure
>oxygen?

Yes.

>For those not aware, oxygen is toxic.

Not immediately. It's contraindicated for people with certain kinds of lung damage because it supresses the O2 baroreceptors that keep some people breathing at all; people with severe COPD fall into this category. But for healthy people, pure O2 at sea level isn't that dangerous for short periods. I've breathed pure O2 for as long as an hour with no problems.

Side note - underwater O2 CAN be very toxic because your body is used to about 3psi PPO2. It can handle 15psi oxygen for moderate periods, but even going down 30 feet gets you to 30psi PPO2. NOAA recommends no more than 24 hours on pure O2 at the surface (i.e. 15psi PPO2) 4 hours at 18psi, 2 hours at 22psi, and 45 minutes at 27psi.

[Deuce 1]

I did the Air Force altitude chamber training back when I was a good air force cadet and was kicked into the Marine Corps program.

I did the program at Mather.

My partner was a 50 year old or so airline pilot, and a smoker. At 30,000 feet or so he took off his mask and promptly passed out. I put his mask on pressure back on and he came to right away. Oxygen is marvelous. I did several tests in the chamber, but the most amazing was the color test. You watch a TV color test and take off your mask at altitude. After a few seconds you put the O2 mask back on and there is an amazing "Wizard of Oz" moment as color floods back into the view of the user.

People pass out, vomit, crap their pants (brown out) etc.

I'd do it again, but I don't thing I'd gain any more respect for altitude. My training included explosive decompression to 30,000 feet.

Kicking and unconscious guy out at 21 grand is equivalent to attempted murder without the intent, cause the kicker is not in a right mind.

Geez.

Why are we trying to make this sport more dangerous?

Geez.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Side note - underwater O2 CAN be very toxic because your body is used to about 3psi PPO2. It can handle 15psi oxygen for moderate periods, but even going down 30 feet gets you to 30psi PPO2. NOAA recommends no more than 24 hours on pure O2 at the surface (i.e. 15psi PPO2) 4 hours at 18psi, 2 hours at 22psi, and 45 minutes at 27psi.

Yes, breathing pure O2 underwater at PP02 over 1.6 (though dives are considered working activity, so the limit is usually put at 1.4) past that 45 minute threshold puts the person at risk for a seizure, which given the circumstances can easily turn into a drowning.

In the hospital breathing at 1.0, the lungs start suffering after 24 hours.

For skydiving, it's a non issue other than any potential fire risk.

I used to fly with my pony bottle, but it was guaranteed to be inspected every time. Also, the pressure has to be essentially zero (39psi max?), which in the diving world means the tank is supposed to be inspected, and for a pure 02 tank, should be cleaned again. Contamination of a 100% O2 tank runs the risk of bad things when it is filled at 2000-3500psi.

[Nickkk 0]

That is scary!!!

What do you do when someone throws a big planet at you?
Throw your pilot chute in defense!

[Elisha 1]

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That is scary!!!

No shit!!!

I haven't been above about 15.5K in a jump, but that was f-in scary! The girl "helping" the guy out of the plane seemed like, "It'll be ok...just crawl out the door into the nice [bed of] air and you'll be fine." I guess that is the loss of judgment part.

[jumpdr 0]

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At sea level, the pressure is 14.7PSI; oxygen makes up 21% of the air. That's a partial pressure of oxygen (ppO2) of 3.1psi.

At 36,000 feet, atmospheric pressure is 3.4PSI. 100% oxygen would result in a partial pressure of 3.4psi, higher than you get on the ground. However, as you noted, most emergency O2 systems are insufficient to get you 100% oxygen. In most scenarios, onboard oxygen is used only until the plane descends to below 10,000 feet, which can be accomplished pretty rapidly in an emergency. About the only time you'd stay at higher altitudes is if you were doing a trans-oceanic flight with no place to divert to; in such cases, it might be critical to remain at higher altitudes to have enough range to reach an airport.

At 42,000 feet, atmospheric pressure is about 2.4PSI, so even pure O2 won't give you that 3PSI you'd get at sea level.

Apologies, I didn't have the figures to hand so I did a search and found this: "Positive pressure breathing (PPB) is used to maintain the alveolar partial pressure of oxygen during altitude exposures in excess of 12,000 meters (36,000 feet). At altitudes up to 33,000 feet the alveolar gas tensions may be kept within the normal range by increasing the concentration of oxygen in the inspired gas mixture. Above this altitude, however, alveolar oxygen tensions fall below normal levels despite breathing 100% oxygen (Sharp & Ernsting, 1988)."

Of course, the descent to 10,000ft relies on the pilots recognising and responding to the drop in cabin pressure before they become incapacitated by hypoxia. Recall the Helios disaster in 2005.

Skydiving is more than a sport and more than a job: skydiving is pure passion and desire which will fill a lifetime.

[MotherGoose 0]

I hope the DZ you jumped at has some forgiveable "OUTS" !! I counted well over 1 minute and 40 seconds of exit separation on the same jump run from the time the first group left until the girl in red exits. WTF??

I must say this . . . THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for posting this video. From the first day I decided to become a skydiver, I've been anticipating a nice high altitude jump to get a feel for a nice LONG freefall. And as noobs, we hear about the use of oxygen for the higher jumps and it all sounds very exciting and fun really. Never once, until seeing this thread, did I have any respect for the dangers of hypoxia. I always knew that it could happen, but the "it'll happen to the other guy" mentality took over. This thread, and especially, THAT VIDEO are incredibly important wake-up calls to someone like me. So thank you again.

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[littleskycrab 0]

That was some scary shit!!!

Next time a sunrise steals your breath or a meadow of flowers leaves you speechless, remain that way. Say nothing and listen as heaven whispers, "Do you like it? I did it just for you."

[LouDiamond 1]

That is absolutely criminal but a very good example of what I and others have been saying about this topic on these forums for some time. A search on "high altitude" jumping or "hypoxia"will bring up several informative threads.

Hypoxia and DCS are no laughing matter when it comes to high alti jumping. Civilian skydivers have been getting lucky for a very long time but that luck is running low. Especially now that the world records are getting bigger and more altitude combined with multiple trips to higher altitudes is becoming the norm. There are already cases where this has happened on past attempts and it is only going to get worse. More importantly though, the average skydiver doesn't realize that you don't have to be on a "high altitude jump" to be effected by hypoxia. There are several common scenarios that happen at DZs all over that could potentially put people in hypoxic situations. Knowing the effects of hypoxia alone won't make one immune from it ever happening to them as everyone is effected differently and the symptoms one experiences can change as ones physiology changes. Taking a chamber ride is the only way to safely experience the effects, identify your specific reactions and understand how this whole process can effect people at altitude. Most people who take the chamber ride are often shocked at how little they knew before hand and how many misconceptions they had. It's akin to suddenly realizing that all this time you have been doing something that could have resulted in ones serious injury or death and that you've been getting lucky all this time.

Bill gave a good seminar at PIA and several mfgrs of O2 systems and people in the know were in attendence. Hopefully that seminar will help to spur the evolution of O2 use in sport skydiving to a safer level when jumping at high altitudes. Currently, there isn't much mfgr interest due to liability, training requirements and needed equipment per jumper but there is nothing saying that cannot change in the future. I have several meetings already scheduled with most of the O2 mfgrs on a different but related topic and I plan to revisit this topic with them in search of a solution acceptable to all.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Just a few points here:

-Army Special Forces/Navy SEAL/MarineSOC/AFSOC divers routinely dive closed circuit UBA gear and stay subsurface for over two hours (at less than 33 FSW). We purge our rigs of surface air and then enter the water. No big deal, so long as you do not flood your rig. We use 100% o2 in those rigs.

-military freefall parachutists go on o2 prior to 10k feet if we are doing jumps between 13,000 and 18,000 feet. For exits above 18k we prebreath 30 minutes. Not 25k as Bill stated. AF pilots go on O2 at 10,000 feet and stay on it till jumpers are away and they are back below 10k. We pre-breath and exit on 100% o2 in the MFF world. Hell, there are people passing around walk-around bottles on "normal" MFF jumps from 12,999 and lower.

More on chamber testing: Some people find that they have incredible tollerances for low o2 levels. Guys who live at higher altitudes. People who drink alot (oddly), and some other people. Individuals who are routinely tested (at least once ever five years these days) often play "king of the chamber" and see who can remain lucid the longest after unmasking. This is, of course, closely supervised by the phys-tech in the chamber with you. You are given some paper and pencils and asked to complete tasks. Some guys can't even write their name. Others stay off mask until forced to do so by the chamber safety/phys-tech. I was alway one of the last still functioning and forced to remask. It's funny to see others flip out or pass out very quickly. I really, really don't recommend participating in any high altitude jumps on less-than-kosher o2 systems if you have not been to a chamber. This video is a PERFECT example of what not to do.

Chuck

[NWFlyer 2]

Given that most people probably won't ever get to the levels of knowledge about this as you guys who have experience through military training and world record attempts... are there specific things that jumpers can do to minimize the possibility of being affected by hypoxia?

The one thing I've heard and that I practice every year at Lost Prairie (which is 3,000+ feet above MSL with jumps routinely from 13,000+ AGL) is making movements at higher altitudes very slow and deliberate and as limited as possible, while also focusing on measured, deep breathing. I had one jump there where I put my booties on as we were getting close to jump run and had to fight with them a bit. Just that amount of movement and leaning over made me a little lightheaded and made me realize that dealing with my booties was something I could do before loading or at much lower altitudes.

Are there other things that can be done?

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[kelpdiver 2]

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I hope the DZ you jumped at has some forgiveable "OUTS" !! I counted well over 1 minute and 40 seconds of exit separation on the same jump run from the time the first group left until the girl in red exits. WTF??

Remember that exit run can be very long if the ground speed is low. At that altitude the plane needs a higher air speed, but the uppers tend to increase as well. Probably not the case here, but not impossible.

That said, my first out landing was a 24k jump where the 2 way before me struggled either with the count or just getting out the door.

It was interesting having limited grip in the air on exit and feeling it get thicker during the descent, but I don't think I see enough gain for the expense and effort to go to 30.

[tombuch 0]

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Given that most people probably won't ever get to the levels of knowledge about this as you guys who have experience through military training and world record attempts... are there specific things that jumpers can do to minimize the possibility of being affected by hypoxia?

Minimize movements and talking at altitude. Those things require energy and burn off oxygen.

Stay well hydrated through the weekend, and well fed. A properly nourished body is better at oxygen transfer.

Be well rested It takes more energy to move a tired body.

Stay cool/warm. That's especially true in the middle of summer. A hot or cold body takes more oxygen to maintain normal temperatures.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[grue 1]

On my high altitude (A hair under 22,000 AGL according to my logbook) jump at Eloy holiday boogie in 05 (I have a suspicion that the video was the load before mine, maybe? Something along those lines was alleged to have happened), we went masks on at either 10,000AGL or 12,000AGL, I can't recall which. In either case, my group was first out, and I was off oxygen for a decent amount of time before exit, due to the issues getting set up in the door (not my fault, I was out and ready within a couple seconds ). I didn't notice any issues, but once I was under canopy, I looked around and did a check, there was a LOT of separation between all of us (the load, not my group), which makes me wonder how long it look them to all get out of the plane.

cavete terrae.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

I agree with mothergoose on this one...that video taught me something I never realized was that serious. I knew about hypoxia, but not to that extent.

I can't believe the girl standing in the door watching that guy obviously incapacitated on the floor, and not doing anything. I realize that she was hypoxic as well, but damn.

This video also makes me wonder about the pilots. I can't see them being on their own oxygen system, but maybe. If you consider, that was one hell of a jump run, maybe they were hypoxic too and thought everything was ok. And if they were not hypoxic, you think they might wonder why everyone isn't out after 2 mins. Was it the pilot in the video that yelled "GO", or was it another jumper?


Scary, Scary shit!

Thanks for sharing the video!

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[LouDiamond 1]

You can check out Bill's post in this forum that has the text portion of his seminar and addresses in part, what you can do to reduce the chances of it occuring. Prevention is pure and simple O2 use. Bill contacted myself and others when building the presentation for PIA and some really good info is in the text and Power point presentation. I think Bill may post the PP presentation if he can get it small enough. You can also search the forums here as I and others have posted some more detailed info in other threads. I'd look them up for you but I am on a call and have to go

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Another thing I would like to mention concerning "boogie" high altitude jumps: doing it while hungover. Doing a high altitude jump very-early in the morning after a hard night of drinking is a sure-fire recipe for disaster. If you can't be 100%, then just DON'T do them.

Chuck

[NewGuy2005 51]

Did you notice he almost went out with his mask on?

[rhanold 0]

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If the O2 problems were systemic, then everyone was as dopey as that guy. It's one of the biggest problem with monitoring O2 usage - your judgement goes first, and if you don't have the judgement to know you are impaired, then you can't take any steps to mitigate the problem.

Thank you for that post. That is exactly what happened. I felt more drunk then I ever have. I should not have left the plane. The jump run was in excess of 10 minutes and the pilot was the one yelling go. Everyone I talked to on that jump said they should not have gotten out. That will be my last High alt. jump. I took this video. and I told people not to post it. I believe this conversation has happened before on these forums without the inflammatory video.

[MotherGoose 0]

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I believe this conversation has happened before on these forums without the inflammatory video.

I'll have you know that there is nothing angering, ruinous or damaging about this video, if I'm taking the word inflammatory in the context that you had intended. This video could very well save lives. Humans are a unique creature, we seem to learn best from our mistakes. The ones where shit goes wrong but no one dies, well those are probably the best kind of mistakes to get through to people like myself who admittedly would have never thought twice about Hypoxia until I saw that video.

Don't REGRET that jump . . . teach others the valuable lesson you learned from it, and USE the video as a learning tool for God's sake !! Everyone planning a High Altitude jump should watch YOUR VIDEO and thank you for it to boot . . . cheers .

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[DSE 3]

Seeing the video opened my eyes. Please don't see it as anything but a "Damn, I hope no one else ever does this..."
I for one, really appreciated seeing it rather than being told about it.
Very glad you came out of it okay.

[NWFlyer 2]

I think everyone here realizes that every action that was taken on that plane was a result of severe hypoxia. I don't think anyone's looking at any of the jumpers on that plane and saying "what an idiot" or "gosh, how callous." It's more "holy crap look what hypoxia does to your judgment!! That could be me!"

And it's a wonderful tool for bringing to light the many things that can go wrong when you see equipment failures like you had on that aircraft. If it leads to more thoughtful execution of high-altitude jumps, then your video may have saved lives.

I am glad it was shared, and while I can understand your discomfort with having it up here, I hope you'll see it for the valuable tool that it is.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[brettski74 0]

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Are there other things that can be done?

Maintain good cardio-vascular fitness. Just as a well-nourished body will perform better, an efficient cardio-vascular system should be better at dealing with lower blood oxygen levels.

That said, do your marathon training or whatever before you get to the dropzone. It typically takes 48 hours or more to properly recover from a good cardio-vascular workout, and during that time, your new and improved cardio-vascular system will also be busy helping your body recover.