when is it appropriate to fly in proximity under canopy or bump endcells?

[daremrc 0]

In your opinion, is it appropriate for someone with 75 jumps to make a 2-way high-altitude hop & pop where the plan includes close proximity flight and/or the bumping of end cells with an experienced jumper?

Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

[pilotdave 0]

All depends on what you mean by an experienced jumper. 200 jumps and never tried it before? Probably not a good idea. Someone with lots of CRW experience? Sure... why wait till 75 jumps?

Dave

[billvon 2,380]

>In your opinion, is it appropriate for someone with 75 jumps to make a
>2-way high-altitude hop & pop where the plan includes close proximity
>flight and/or the bumping of end cells with an experienced jumper?

If the experienced jumper is Chris Gay, or Wendy, or someone like that? No problem! It would probably be a good experience for them.

If it's someone else with 75 jumps? Probably a bad idea.

[DJL 232]

I did intentional planned CRW on my 36th jump with an experienced CRW jumper and think more people should do the same early in their jump numbers.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Andy9o8 0]

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I did intentional planned CRW on my 36th jump with an experienced CRW jumper and think more people should do the same early in their jump numbers.

I agree in principle, but I have a cautionary concern. Some CRW, if the canopies don't get too close, might be a good way of teaching/learning canopy control. And certainly everyone, including students, should be trained and drilled on what to do in case of a wrap (as we just saw with the Brazil incident). I'm just concerned that doing CRW, particularly if contact is intended, arguably increases the chance that a wrap might occur, especially with one of the jumpers being a novice. And I have concerns over just how much the average 36-jump novice really is prepared to deal properly with a wrap.

[smooth 0]

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In your opinion, is it appropriate for someone with 75 jumps to make a 2-way high-altitude hop & pop where the plan includes close proximity flight and/or the bumping of end cells with an experienced jumper?

In my opinion it's ok partially because you said it was PLANNED, only a 2-way, and with an EXPERIENCED jumper.

[pilot-one 0]

In Brian Germain's canopy control course at least one of the jumps is canopy proximity flying including bumping end cells. I had about 100 jumps and my "partner" had about 45. There was absolutely no problem with this in my opinion or Brian Germain's for that matter. As long as you're not sneaking up on somebody it's a great way to learn what your canopy is doing, what is can do and how it reacts to your inputs.

[erdnarob 1]

I heard this is a common exercise to be made when taking a canopy pilot course and that can be made at 75 jumps and even before provided the partner is an experienced canopy pilot coach. Obviously, this pratice has to be well planed.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[daremrc 0]

So yes, this was a loaded question.

Over the weekend I took a jumper with 75 jumps on a full altitude h&p with the intention of close flying. We checked the uppers, planned a holding area upwind of the normal jump operations, and decided that at 4000', we would cease any close flying and head straight back to the normal southern holding area. Before we ever decided we were going to make this jump, we talked about RSL, the fact that he would need to disconnect this, and that if he was uncomfortable with this then we should wait to make this jump. We talked about why our RSLs would be disconnected. We also reviewed what we would do in the event of an entanglement, establishing communication with each other and maintaining altitude awareness while we determine if we can clear the issue or not. I also ensured that this jumper had a hook knife. Besides this, this particular guy has shown to be heads up and has demonstrated the ability to fly his canopy relatively well and land accurately.
Finally, after all of this briefing, I told him that I would fly next to him at a canopy's distance, and if we were maintaining the same glide angle and if he felt comfortable, then at that time it would be appropriate for him to slowly drift over and we could touch end cells.

I also took Brian Germains class and while I don't recall whether or not we actually bumped endcells there, we absolutely were paired up to do very-close proximity flying so that we could witness the effects of the different control inputs with a frame of reference nearby.

Anyhow, suffice it to say that there were others at this particular DZ who made it clear that they thought this was a reckless skydive, while I did not. I do not have a very large number of jumps, but the ones I have made have mainly focused on canopy control on hop & pops, as well as 20-30 jumps just like this one from full altitude.

I feel that I was very careful in approaching this situation and covered the bases beforehand, and if this had taken place at my home DZ this would have not really been a big deal. I guess my point is, as a new coach, is my perception of the appropriateness of this jump incorrect? I respect the responsibility of holding this rating and I am trying to figure out if I showed poor judgment here, or if the reaction I've gotten from this was a bit heavy handed. Full disclosure here, I was asked to not return to this DZ after this jump so while I am feeling a bit salty here over the whole thing, I am absolutely interested in hearing any criticism anyone might have about this because in the end I want to check myself against what the rest of the world is doing, even if this is a normal occurrence at the DZ I started at..

Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

[peek 20]

Sounds like what you did was well planned and reasonably safe. (Compared to nothing being perfectly safe.)

[DJL 232]

You ran into a combination of things. Many jumpers are pussies about proximity flying their canopy. People at some DZ's like to flex their power to visiting jumpers. People at some DZ's don't like visiting jumpers doing things with their low-number jumpers that they either don't like or don't understand.

How did you know that this guy was so heads up if you're a visiting jumper?
Did you speak with manifest about the SOP for high altitude canopy flight? If not then you should have because every DZ is different in this regard.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[sebcat 0]

I did proximity flight at jump #43 with a guy who at the time had about 2-300 jumps. Good times. My interest in CF grew a lot after that one jump.

To participate in CF jumps here you must have 100 jumps and your first CF jumps has to be with a person with at least 25 CF jumps. CF is defined as 'contact between jumpers under fully inflated canopies'. Bumping end-cells is not considered CF by most jumpers but it falls under that definition I guess, and if the shit hits the fan... Proximity flight is not restricted in any way. It's actually encouraged. As long as you understand the possible problems that might occur, I don't see a problem with it. That involves not using/disconnecting RSLs etc.

Wing loading limitations was my biggest problem when I tried getting involved with CF. I had to wait 'til my #200 or so to do the real thing with a properly loaded Lightning. Now, CF is pretty much all I want to do
I don't know where I'm going with this, I guess I just want to add some perspective or something. For what it's worth, if I was that person with 75 jumps, I would be very greatful for that opportunity and I think that's what matters here. That guy probably learned something under relatively safe circumstances that made him a better pilot. If some other guy with influences on that DZ didn't like it, fuck him. You probably got punished because he couldn't find any arguments to support his point of view.

But what do I know, that guy probably has ten times more jumps than me, if not more.

[pilotdave 0]

I assume the guy with 75 jumps was licensed? With only your side of the story, I don't think you did anything wrong. But there's always another side to every story. What issues did the DZO/S&TA/whatever bring up, specifically? How many jumps do they think are required for a jump like that?

Dave

[daremrc 0]

without getting into the who's & where's..

I wasn't a visiting jumper, per se. I moved to a new state less than a year ago and I considered this place one of my home DZ's for the summer. I put this particular guy out on his clear & pulls at this same DZ back in the spring when he didn't yet have his A license and I was a newly minted coach working for this DZO. Yes, he now is licensed and comes out almost every weekend.

We discussed with the management the fact that we were going to do a high altitude hop & pop, so they were aware. We made them aware because they were running two airplanes that day, and we wanted to make sure 1) it was OK for us to plan this jump and 2) make sure the pilots knew that we would be under canopy high, but not in the area that they would potentially drop another load over the top of us. We were about 3/4-1 Mile further into the wind until we came below 4000'. This plan was discussed with and approved by the DZO & S&TA before we took off.

The issue that was brought to me was that at 75 jumps, the other jumper was not qualified to do a CRW jump. The DZO then defined the jump that we did as a CRW jump because of the bumping of end cells in particular. They did not define to me at what experience level this would be appropriate, but I think that the recent CRW-related incidents may have played a part in the reaction that we got.

I dont personally consider this a CRW jump but again, that's why I'm here trying to get a hold on whetehr or not my perspective or judgment is incorrect. As far as the DZO/management is concerned, I'm not trying to win an argument because I don't think I'll be going back there anyhow, however in light of everything that we planned out I still think that this was a relatively safe jump with the proper conversations about the 'what-if's' ahead of time. It is my feeling that I would go ahead with another jump like this under similar circumstances but that's why I'm trying to bounce this off of others to figure out if I am off base here...

Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

[Andy9o8 0]

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This plan was discussed with and approved by the DZO & S&TA before we took off.

Was the actual bumping of end cells specifically discussed and approved by the DZO and/or S&TA prior to takeoff?

[daremrc 0]

No. We (DZO, S&TA & I) talked about whether a high altitude h&p would be a good idea if we held south of the drop area, and it was decided it was. The jumper and I then planned the jump and got agreement about it from another instructor-rated jumper at the dz after it was decided that we would bump endcells if everything else went right and the low-time person was comfortable. The conflict came after we landed and we were talking with that same instructor about how the jump went and were overheard.

I guess that could have been made more explicit before hand on my part.

Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

[Madison 0]

"I dont personally consider this a CRW jump..."

What? Why not?

If you are sharing airspace with others: they are all CRW jumps!
Please educate yourself and others with this basic concept.

I find it very frustrating that most jumpers do not understand this.
April

Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.

[Andy9o8 0]

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This plan was discussed with and approved by the DZO & S&TA before we took off.

Was the actual bumping of end cells specifically discussed and approved by the DZO and/or S&TA prior to takeoff?

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No.

Then that's why the DZO kicked you off the DZ: he felt you'd sandbagged him. And, with all due respect, I don't blame him.

[DJL 232]

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Quote

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This plan was discussed with and approved by the DZO & S&TA before we took off.

Was the actual bumping of end cells specifically discussed and approved by the DZO and/or S&TA prior to takeoff?

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No.

Then that's why the DZO kicked you off the DZ: he felt you'd sandbagged him. And, with all due respect, I don't blame him.

I think it's still over-reacting because I don't think that bumping endcells is a big deal. Also, sandbagging is if they knew that the DZO had a problem with it to begin with. In comparison, nobody acts when the same jumpers try complex 5 person free-fly jumps.

So, why does bumping end cells have to be approved by the DZO and S&TA?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[pilotdave 0]

I don't know the full circumstances, but I still don't see any issue with what you did. Maybe that DZ has different rules, but I haven't been to any DZ where I needed to clear my plans with the DZO or S&TA ahead of time, except when it comes to the things you ran by them. I'd ask them what BSRs or USPA recommendations you violated.

Don't get me wrong, you don't have to violate a BSR or USPA recommendation to do something wrong. I just don't see it here.

Dave

[daremrc 0]

I'd like to keep the debate over being asked to leave out of this, the only reason I brought it up was to paint an accurate picture of what happened. What I did not come here to do was try to portray this situation in a positive manner towards me and a negative towards the DZO. At the end of the day, I respect the DZO's right to tell me to get lost for any reason he chooses. For the record, I was not attempting to sandbag or hide any information from anyone, this was simply how the planning of our jump played out and it did not occur to me to go ask the DZO or S&TA again if bumping end cells was/wasn't OK.

Our personal differences aside, what bothers me about the weekends happenings is that I was told that this is unsafe behavior. It was and still is my position that I don't think that this was a particularity unsafe thing to do, and what I came here looking for was a an experienced group of people who could either correct my misconception or validate my decision process. Seems we have a little bit of both, as I expected.

What I have learned thus far is that this is at the very least a grey area and there are regional differences in weather or not this was a good idea.
Second, I have learned that my own personal definition of what a CRW jump is needs to be at least re-examined, however that is why I came here and poured the details on the table for people to pick apart: To get educated.

Thanks for everyones input, if there is more anyone has to add I'm game to hear it.

Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Hell, it sounds safer than a lot of the careless hook turn swooping I see a lot of people doing long before they are good enough to handle it. I think you're both licensed jumpers, preplanned it all out, and did it safely. I don't know why the DZO has such a big bug up his butt about it, but maybe he'll chime in and tell us why. Getting booted off the DZ for it sounds pretty harsh. Are there other things involved than just this?

[Andy9o8 0]

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So, why does bumping end cells have to be approved by the DZO and S&TA?

In this particular instance, this DZO probably felt that, given the pre-jump discussion that did take place, if they were planning to bump end cells, they should have mentioned it to them. Rightly or wrongly, I'll bet the DZO felt the OP hadn't been straight-up with him; and perception, as they say, is reality. Many DZOs get pissy if they feel they're not being accorded due respect. Don't tweak the top bear's nose if you don't want to get swatted.

Anyhow, in deference to the OP's request that this not be dwelled-upon, I'll drop it.

[JohnDeere 0]

I see nothing wrong with it at all. The only thing i do diff. is if the other jumper has never been on a flock dive, I let them exit first and me after. Then I tell them to stow slider release bracks and fly staight (in a pre-determened direction). Then I will close in and let them do diff thing with there body brake and riser's so they can see what the input's do while next to someone. I prefer newer jumper's (to flocking) not turn (or close in) unless im not next to them.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[rhanold 0]

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"I dont personally consider this a CRW jump..."

What? Why not?

If you are sharing airspace with others: they are all CRW jumps!
Please educate yourself and others with this basic concept.

I find it very frustrating that most jumpers do not understand this.
April

I think there is flying in proximity crew and then there is docking in lines crew. The SIM describes crew (canopy formations) as:

"Canopy formations are built by the intentional maneuvering of two or more open parachute canopies in close proximity to or in contact with one another during flight."

which docking on end cells, IMO, fits squarely under. However when you read more into the SIM on crew you see statements such as:

"The most basic canopy formation is the joining of two canopies vertically during flight as a stack or plane (compressed stack)."

and

"For the first few jumps, begin with stacks and planes, as offset formations are less stable."

and

"A center cell dock is preferred for beginners."

These statements indicate one of two things. Either:

1. center cell docking is recommended before you fly in proximity next to someone/touching end cells. or

2. proximity flying/touching end cells does not fit as squarely under the definition of crew as the first quote would suggest.

I believe flying in proximity/touching end cells requires different preparation regarding safety briefings and gear (hook knife, helmet, ect.) than a FS or freefly dive however it does not fully fall under what most skydivers consider a crew dive. Again, IMO, when a crew jump (docking in lines) is performed a different set of briefings (docking center, calls for incoming and point) and gear (marked center cells, marked center A lines, long pants, long sleeves) are called for. This makes proximity flying/touching end cells and CReW two different animals that should be treated as such.

To the OP I don't see anything wrong with the approach or execution of this jump. The only word of advice I could give you would be to plan for the more experianced person to execute the first dock with the newer jumper holding a straight line. Then after a successful dock letting the newer jumper push in for the second. Just an opinion.