0
billvon

Jumping without a cypres

Recommended Posts

Look at it this way - Some of the most skilled pilots in the world, flying the most high-performance aircraft, sit in an ejection seat. Because shit happens, and the ground is totally unforgiving. Why not take advantage of any technological edge possible.

As far as a two-out, learn what to do and understand the variables and how to deal with them. It doesn't happen from being a LITTLE low. You can toss at 2500 all day and never have a problem.

Kevin K.
_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
well... you jump under Swiss regulations. You should be big enough to take your decisions and know when you can jump or not.

I recommend jumping regularly with an AAD, preferrably a german one. But sometimes you have to jump with the ADD turned OFF (specially in our country). And we also have the possibility to jump without AAD, wether being under scheduled maintenance, or due to unscheduled failure.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
thing is, i'm about to sell my rig, and the guy wants it WITH the cypres; now, i got a container coming, i need canopies to stuff in there, so money for a cypres is kinda out. original plan was to transfer cypres from old to new, money's sufficient (for now) for that, but adding another 1800.- kinda blows my budget. or i just hold skydiving off completely for the off-season, but that blows too..
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Over here it's not a jump# requirement, but to jump without a cypres you must either have a C-licence, do a static-line round jump, or have a Vigil (I or II), argus, FXC12000, Sentinel MK2, Kap3, Heightfinder, EFA or Astra, the latter 9 of which must be turned on and function within the specs set by the manufacturer and the RDAA AND have approval of a licenced RDAA instructor.

But since you don't fall under Dutch rules and regulations, all I can say to you (not being hindered by knowledge of the Swiss rules) is:

Knock yourself out. :)

Edited to specify Vigil: I or II

The S/L round cannot have a piggyback reserve, it must have a belly reserve. :P

(I know of one case where this almost might have been applicable .. that is, static line, round main, square reserve, piggyback rig, no AAD, unlicensed jumper.)
Johan.
I am. I think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

thing is, i'm about to sell my rig, and the guy wants it WITH the cypres; now, i got a container coming, i need canopies to stuff in there, so money for a cypres is kinda out.



I had a friend who sold the Cypres from his rig to make some money (don't worry, this doesn't have a bad ending - he's still alive, as far as I know ;)). It did strike me as a shame that he should have to do that. It would have been different if he'd never had, or didn't want, an AAD - I think he just desperately needed the cash.

If it was me with an AAD-less rig, I'd try to raise the money to buy one sooner rather than later, but I wouldn't stop or limit my jumping in the meantime. But nobody can tell you whether it's acceptable for you to jump without an AAD - you have to weigh that up for yourself.

If it is just a short term cash flow problem, have you looked at the second-hand market? I'm sure some people must have upgraded to a Cypres 2 (for example) while their original model still has a couple of years of life. You might be able to pick up a nearly expired AAD for a fraction of the price of a new one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
havent looked in it just recently, but i dont think there are many cypres's around..

i think i just go without one for a couple months; it's just when i started, i really liked the idea of an AAD, and still do!
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Edited to specify Vigil: I or II

The S/L round cannot have a piggyback reserve, it must have a belly reserve. :P



Well, yes; VB would have to talk to Willem.. but I was purely talking about AAD regulations, not about whether VB could use his own rig. B|

Or did I misinterpret some obscure regulation?
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
there are better deals around... but I fully understand that the cost of an AAD can seem limitative.

if you don't plan to jump abroad in the next couple of months, sell it with the AAD. Contact riggers. They might be able to find a closet rig with a valid AAD inside.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I had a friend who sold the Cypres from his rig to make some money (don't worry, this doesn't have a bad ending - he's still alive, as far as I know



I took my Cypres out of my rig to put in my wife's rig. Her Cypres was due for an 8 year and we decided to sell it to a low time jumper for cheap.

That and I had a Cypres 1, non-speed, and chowing into the pond loaded around 2.7 had me worried about that device. Someday I might buy a Speed Cypre2, but for now I have things I would rather spend my money on.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

As far as a two-out, learn what to do and understand the variables and how to deal with them. It doesn't happen from being a LITTLE low. You can toss at 2500 all day and never have a problem.

Kevin K.



For that matter you can exit at 2000 ft on a hop and pop all day and never have a problem. Gotta love the Pacific Northest.;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

The S/L round cannot have a piggyback reserve, it must have a belly reserve.



And where did you pick up this piece of information?

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=14291990

Sparky



Within context, Johan is right:

Quote


Basic safety regulations article 509

Special regulations regarding use of round main parachutes.

1) Rigs with a chest mounted reserve used by skydivers with at most a b-licence:
*must have a cross-connector (on the chest mounted reserve)
*do not have to have an AAD
2) The minimum exit height for SL jumps with round main parachutes is 2000 feet.


Hence, the SL-round cannot have a piggyback reserve if you want to jump it without an AAD, under Dutch regulations but must have a chest mounted reserve.
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

thing is, i'm about to sell my rig, and the guy wants it WITH the cypres;



How about just saying 'no'?

If everything else about the rig is a good fit for the buyer, the lack of a Cypres should be the last thing to kill the deal. Both the Cypres and the reserve are the easiest pieces to locate used as there are very few options. Rerserves just need to be sized correctly, and there is generally only one model of Cypres to fit a certain rig.

Main canopies bring up the issue of size and color (it matters to some people) and the harness/container has the most options, and as such is the hardest to locate a suitable used one.

Additionally, if a buyer is forced to buy any part of a rig new due to time or market constraints, the Cypres is least expensive component in a rig.

Discount the price of the rig to match the value of the Cypres according to the price calculator on the SSK website, and call it a day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Doesn't the most recent Cypres save that was posted in the Incident forum give most people enough of a reason to use an AAD?



Bump, to that point.

Yesterday, Oct 12, 2009, there were 2 separate fatalities. Both were high-speed main malfunctions (possibly totals or PC in tow), followed by a too-low reserve pull on one, and an apparent no reserve pull on the other. The Hawaii fatality was an experienced jumper and Navy SEAL whose rig did not have an AAD. The Quebec fatality was a jumper who had about 87 jumps, most of them within the past year. Whether he had an AAD has not yet been reported, but from the facts it's not unreasonable to suspect (pending confirmation) that he did not.

Back in the Day, an awful lot of fatalities were no-pulls or low-pulls. Then modern, reliable AADs (and audible altimeters) came onto the market and into common use (as well as higher average pull altitudes), and low-pull/no-pull fatalities greatly reduced. (Replaced, sadly, with a lot more under-canopy fatalities.)

From the looks of things, yesterday's two incidents appear to have been fatalities of the old-fashioned kind. I think it's reasonable to keep that in mind as the AAD debate goes on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

havent looked in it just recently, but i dont think there are many cypres's around..

i think i just go without one for a couple months; it's just when i started, i really liked the idea of an AAD, and still do!




There are at least 5 listed in the Classifieds section of this site. Also, when a friend needed one, he called SSK (USA rep for Airtek) and they sold him a used one.

I am sure either your buyer, or you, could get what you need on the used market.

While I believe in taking 100% responsibility for the safe execution of your dive, I also believe that there are external factors beyond your control that can be deadly. Taking 100% responsibility for the safety of the dive should include anticipating all that you can including outside items that could cause incapacitation.

Just my thoughts,
JW
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

The Hawaii fatality was an experienced jumper and Navy SEAL whose rig did not have an AAD. The Quebec fatality was a jumper who had about 87 jumps, most of them within the past year. Whether he had an AAD has not yet been reported



Correction of my earlier post. The Navy SEAL in Hawaii is also the person who had 87 jumps in the past year. The experience level of the Quebec jumper has not yet been reported. Apologies for the error.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, now we have the answer about the Quebec jumper's rig. His rig did have an AAD, but it was not turned on; so it might as well have not been there at all.

So now it's established that both of the October 12, 2009 fatalities were high-speed, container-closed main malfunctions, where neither rig had an activated AAD at the time of the jump, and where the presence of one might have interrupted the chain of events to make either incident, or both of them, survivable.

Someone else in the Hawaii incident thread has remarked, "it looks like the old fashioned way of going in clean is back". I surely hope that's not the case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account. It's free!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
0