Ban Boogies, They are killing people.

[ORANGENBLUE 0]

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no 270s in traffic = not killing people
no boogies = not killing people

Incidents at boogies happen most often due to someone doing something silly and/or more risky than they should be in the conditions. Accordingly, the remedy should be to address those behaviours, not try to ban the whole shindig.

Ah yes grass hopper, very wise. I fail to see how swooping in traffic is any diffrent/less silly/less risky than the boogie behaviour. however, SDAZ seems to think that to ban is to cure.

SDAZ has some amazing swooping talent an I think there are more than a few who would like to tap into it. Perhaps they could work with those pilots to try to acommidate. (a swooping day, one a month, week what ever) I think that there are solutions that would make SDAZ still attractive to swoopers, and safe for others.

[brettski74 0]

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replace boogie with swooping in your post and you will see the flawed logic in both situation.

And I assume that this is in reaction to the new rules at SDAZ becoming permanent. Neither swooping or 270s have been banned outright. The new rules simply identify times and places when it is appropriate to do so. How is this in any way comparable to banning boogies?

[skinnyshrek 0]

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The Dublin boogie didn't kill anyone--an arrogant, selfish son-of-a-bitch whose need for thrills outweighed his desire to not put his fellow jumpers at risk killed himself and another jumper, though.

No, a skydiver and a good man made a mistake and used bad judgement - that's undeniable.

I'd venture a guess though that Danny (and Bob for that matter) accomplished more in their lives than most of us could ever dream. For the sport, for others and for their own personal goals.

While his mistakes were undeniable (and I call him out on it daily), your comment attempts to gloss over a great man who offered everyone who'd let him everything he had. Your comment's reflection on what exactly you have to offer though.....that I'm not so sure about.

Feel free to call his actions into question, but to call his character into question will meet with the highest resistance from me.

Ian

Sorry Ian i disagree. Danny was told on numerous occasions not to swoop in traffic. He had the personna that it would never happen to him HEY whos your Danny! What danny did was utter sellfishness, needing that last swoop. Not taking any other skydiver into consideration. He may of been a great guy but he will always be the guy responsible for killing a decent human being. What happened at Dublin was a total waste. This will happen again because there are other sellfish bastards out there that have the WON'T HAPPEN TO ME attitude.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[ianmdrennan 2]

As I said, call his actions into question all you want - they deserve it.

But his character....no chance in hell.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[brettski74 0]

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Ah yes grass hopper, very wise. I fail to see how swooping in traffic is any diffrent/less silly/less risky than the boogie behaviour. however, SDAZ seems to think that to ban is to cure.

Yes - I got the link to SDAZ. What I don't get is where Bryan said that swooping is banned. You can do 270s any time of the day that you want, as long as you let manifest know that's what you're going to do and as long as you do it from a dedicated low pass. How is this any different from high-pullers, CRW, wing-suiters. They all need to let manifest know what they're doing and coordinate accordingly with other air traffic to avoid creating dangerous situations.

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SDAZ has some amazing swooping talent an I think there are more than a few who would like to tap into it. Perhaps they could work with those pilots to try to acommidate. (a swooping day, one a month, week what ever) I think that there are solutions that would make SDAZ still attractive to swoopers, and safe for others.

What would happen to non-swoopers on these days?

There are a bunch of dropzones who banned hook turns a long time ago, but nobody made such a fuss then. It seems that now that one of the major dropzones has taken some steps to regulate when and where you can swoop, you feel the need to come on the internet and whine about it.

[waltappel 1]

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Feel free to call his actions into question, but to call his character into question will meet with the highest resistance from me.

Ian

Aren't actions an indication of character, or lack thereof? DP may have been a hero many times over in his lifetime--I don't know--but his death was not a hero's death and I don't think *that* should be glossed over. YMMV.

As for what I have to offer, it's simple. What kills people in canopy collisions is differences in speed and direction. In high-traffic scenarios, be it busy DZs or boogies, we need to have separate landing areas for fast- vs. slow-flying canopies, a standard landing direction for each landing area, and some sort of boundary around the landing area, beyond which significant turns are prohibited.

If everyone in a given landing area is going roughly the same speed and direction, there shouldn't be any problems.

Walt

[ORANGENBLUE 0]

By saying that it is not economically viable to allow low passes, you are basiclly saying even if you want to be out of everyone else's way, we won't let you, and with the amount of loads + aricraft, high pulls (10k or more) are out, than you are esentially saying go pound sand.

i have yet to hear anyone say if it is ok to do 270s @ the swoop puddles there. I could see with their proximity to the main landing area they could be out too.

[turtlespeed 212]

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What would happen to non-swoopers on these days?

There are a bunch of dropzones who banned hook turns a long time ago, but nobody made such a fuss then. It seems that now that one of the major dropzones has taken some steps to regulate when and where you can swoop, you feel the need to come on the internet and whine about it.

So this is what I keep hearing about . . . the ultra experianced jumpers giving out advice and surety as if there is no possible debate to what they say.


That is why I stay in bonfire - where the atmosphere is light and joking. Occasionally serious, but not usually. I like the land of boobies. Take this shit back to gear and rigging, General skydiving or incidents.

And that is what this is - opinionated shit.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[waltappel 1]

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That is why I stay in bonfire - where the atmosphere is light and joking. Occasionally serious, but not usually. I like the land of boobies. Take this shit back to gear and rigging, General skydiving or incidents.

And that is what this is - opinionated shit.

I'm with you on this. I have no need to get my blood pressure up.

Walt

[diablopilot 2]

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Discuss.

This makes about as much sense as banning 270s.

Maybe that was JP's point?

No way?

and we come right back to the second post of the thread about it going to the recycle bin...

bitching and whinning threads ..... esp when there are already countless ongoing threads for a swooper to vent his/her frustrations.

Seriously, this topic has NOTHING to do with the fact I am a high performance canopy pilot.

People are getting fucked up at boogies.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[kelpdiver 2]

how about separate landing zones at boogies? Visitors who won't follow the DZ norms get to use the alternate landing zone. (Same for DZ locals who won't follw the DZ norms)

Nothing like watching a boogie load land and see alternating directions of canopies throughtout the landing sequence.

[diablopilot 2]

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Demo jumps are statistically pretty dangerous too, so why not ban those too while we're at it?

Ah, but in the US we suposidly follow some pretty strict requirements when conducting demos.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

Anyone know how or why this thread got moved? And who to talk to about it? It's skydiving related, and serious.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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The sad thing is this thread will not get the attention it deserves

Especially now that some greenie decided to move the thread into the Bonfire. I guess boobies will be next ...

If the thread was started with a sincere title it would have had a chance to survive...some greenie was absoultly right in moving this thread...I personally thought it would be deleted givin the agnst this week with SDA's new rules being brough forward.

Safety at boogies is a serious topic best addressed in the safety and training forum by someone not out to just make a point of there displeasure with swoopers being targeted by some safety nazies.

Assuming something just makes an ass out of you

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Spizzzarko 0]

Fuck yea bann em all I say. What is the reason to go to boogies now a day with the prolifferation of big turbine DZ's in almost every state. If your state doesn't have a turbin DZ then you are just part of a taliban regime .

[DeNReN 0]

Dont need to assume there skippy...you have/had a agenda with this thread...restart with a serious motif and not the BS this one started with and I will keep my mouth(fingers) shut.

[DougH 270]

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HOWEVER my home DZ is one of the busier as far as jump numbers and canopy traffic and we routinely have to deal with 10+ canopys in the air on any given jump.

10!!!!!!!!!!! How do you guys manage with that much traffic.

I have seen more then 10 jumpers in the air before at a DZ that only flys a single C-182.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[diablopilot 2]

And exactly how many boogies/events have you attended? When is the last time you saw how chaotic the pattern and landings can be on a 100+ way where all the people are on the same dive/plan?

Now try to think what it's like when it's all separate groups. Massive boogies even with briefings (which many of them gloss over) are zoos.

Banning them is of course silly, but educating jumpers about the safety aspects of them is not. People are using the last 7 fatalities to crucify high performance canopy flight. I agree that there is a time and a place for it, and it's not at a boogie. But expecting 300+ possibly uncurrent skydivers to a boogie, putting 70+ of them in the air at the same time and giving them the option of two football field sized landing areas is the start of an incident report.

edit: spelling.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[MLKSKY 0]

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The Dublin boogie didn't kill anyone--an arrogant, selfish son-of-a-bitch whose need for thrills outweighed his desire to not put his fellow jumpers at risk killed himself and another jumper, though.

Walt

Easy man. Arrogant yes, selfish son of a bitch, nope. He made a fucked up mistake and paid for it with both his life and Bob's life. Name calling not necessary.

[DeNReN 0]

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And exactly how many boogies/events have you attended? When is the last time you saw how chaotic the patern and landings can be on a 100+ way where all the people are on the same dive/plan?

Now try to think what it's like when it's all seperate groups. Massive boogies even with briefings (which many of them gloss over) are zoos.

Banning them is of course silly, but educating jumpers about the safety aspects of them is not. People are using the last 7 fatalities to crusify high performance canopy flight. I agree that there is a time and a place for it, and it's not at a boogie. But expecting 300+ possibly uncurrent skydivers to a boogie, putting 70+ of them in the air at the same time and giving them the option of two football field sized landing areas is the start of an incident report.

Well...now there is something worth typing....TY
Next time dont BS us with your crap about banning boogies!!!......I have never been to a boogie and some hot-shot pisssed off swooper talking about banning them kinda irks me.
hugs and kisses

You get my point yet skippy?

[Rainbo 0]

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I agree that there is a time and a place for it, and it's not at a boogie. But expecting 300+ possibly uncurrent skydivers to a boogie, putting 70+ of them in the air at the same time and giving them the option of two football field sized landing areas is the start of an incident report.

And is just one of the continually smaller boxes we put ourselves into just before the incident occurs. And you will notice that I do use the word incident. We put ourselves into smaller airspace, we put ourselves with more people, we put ourselves with faster canopies...
When you investigates an incident how often is there just one issue that lead to the pain at the end. We both know that it is usually more than one thing and that they usually compound themselves. Well I just listed a few above and how about lower experience levels in the same air, multiple aircraft in the same air, and the box gets smaller and soon there is no more room in the box and then comes the pain.
We do need to enforce rules but we also as individuals need to think about what environment we are going to be putting ourselves in and make the right decision for ourselves, that being said, I have always known that my life is more in the hands of those around me than in my own up there, and I accept that.

Rainbo
TheSpeedTriple - Speed is everything
"Blessed are those who can give without remembering, and take without forgetting."

[diablopilot 2]

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I agree that there is a time and a place for it, and it's not at a boogie. But expecting 300+ possibly uncurrent skydivers to a boogie, putting 70+ of them in the air at the same time and giving them the option of two football field sized landing areas is the start of an incident report.

And is just one of the continually smaller boxes we put ourselves into just before the incident occurs. And you will notice that I do use the word incident. We put ourselves into smaller airspace, we put ourselves with more people, we put ourselves with faster canopies...
When you investigates an incident how often is there just one issue that lead to the pain at the end. We both know that it is usually more than one thing and that they usually compound themselves. Well I just listed a few above and how about lower experience levels in the same air, multiple aircraft in the same air, and the box gets smaller and soon there is no more room in the box and then comes the pain.
We do need to enforce rules but we also as individuals need to think about what environment we are going to be putting ourselves in and make the right decision for ourselves, that being said, I have always known that my life is more in the hands of those around me than in my own up there, and I accept that.

I think that as I get older in this sport, I get more scared by that and it's why my skydiving changes to follow suit. It's why I pass on the sometimes zoo loads, and don't attend the boogies. It's why people wonder why I do so many hop and pops, or high altitude deployments. I love skydiving with people, but no one wants to think about the dangerous aspects of it.

"Everyone else is out to kill you" is what an instructor told me once. Now I've been chastised by an employer for being too "Sport Death" in what I tell students.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[sagan 0]

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Re: [diablopilot] Ban Boogies, They are killing people. [In reply to] Quote | Reply
how about separate landing zones at boogies? Visitors who won't follow the DZ norms get to use the alternate landing zone. (Same for DZ locals who won't follw the DZ norms)

Nothing like watching a boogie load land and see alternating directions of canopies throughtout the landing sequence.

I was scared shitless after opening on a full otter load only to find 60 other canopies in the air during my first boogie landing every which way. It would seem that boogies with a lot of landing areas with defined rules about those areas would be a simple first step?

Also how many boogies require the same orientation of the grounds and the specific DZ procedures that you get when you normally visit a new DZ? I know I was never asked to do an orientation on several occasions. I realize a lot of this comes down to personal prudence, but I think many would agree that you can really get caught up in the excitement when you get to a boogie and wanna get on a plane right away.

-Patrick

[benforde 0]

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Really? Why so?

There have been at least 6 fatalities in the last 3 months at boogies. Boogies are statistically higher risk events.

And? it's a free world, stay home or attend the higher risk event... it's your call.

Separate patterns and landing areas, for hi-po, regular straight in slow landings, students, and also one for the contracted military, all play in their own sandboxes, and you won't get the faster sand in your eyes.

Boogies, and friends and gatherings rock, I love them... long live Boogies!

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[waltappel 1]

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The Dublin boogie didn't kill anyone--an arrogant, selfish son-of-a-bitch whose need for thrills outweighed his desire to not put his fellow jumpers at risk killed himself and another jumper, though.

Walt

Easy man. Arrogant yes, selfish son of a bitch, nope. He made a fucked up mistake and paid for it with both his life and Bob's life. Name calling not necessary.

You're right. Name calling is not necessary. Nor was it necessary for Danny Page to kill himself and someone else.

Personally, I don't care what price he paid.

My words come from anger and I know that's not good, but for all of you Danny Page worshipers out there, I have to believe that you would feel differently if he had killed someone in *your* family. I didn't know either of the guys who died at Dublin, but it looks an awful lot like BH did everything right and DP did everything wrong.

What if DP had been killed by a drunk driver on his 5th DWI? Would you say the guy simply made a mistake?

Walt