Argus AADs banned in Basik containers

[gjhdiver 0]

Here's the official position of the Dutch Parachute Association on the Argus. I think our rigger friend may have overreached himself.

[evh 22]

Well, it seems mr. Oosterveer managed to convince the Dutch Parachute Association after all. There is now an official safety bulletin on the Argus, stating that you need to ask your HC manufacturer before using an Argus. Plus you need to have at least a C-licence to use it. It is not allowed on tandem gear.

http://www.parachute.nl/vb200605.html

Is the test report available on-line somewhere?

[skydivepete 0]

Well, it seems mr. Oosterveer managed to convince the Dutch Parachute Association after all. There is now an official safety bulletin on the Argus, stating that you need to ask your HC manufacturer before using an Argus. Plus you need to have at least a C-licence to use it. It is not allowed on tandem gear.

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Nope, check uspa his post on another thread...

[***

Technical comittee members and board of the KNVvL (dutch authorities) have made clear this kind of bulletins will be standard for every new AAD or other life saving devices on the market. First 6 to 12 months operating in the field, only allowed for C and D license (more experienced jumpers of whom can be expected to look after themselves and should know what they are doing) and after that gather the data and clear it for general use. Argus just happend to be the first device in which this "rule" is applied.

(In retrospect they wanted to do this with the Vigil (and I presume Cypres2?) but were caught by surprise (don't even start... :P )

Pete

[deassasin 0]

1st of all the batteries in the argus and CYPRESS and ARGUS are the same ,the only thing CYPRESS does is that they put it in that way that its fixed and they put there name around the battery
so in case of the battery....

[USPA 0]

This is what made me laugh also about the basik bulletin:

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I have been really suspicious with it (not about electronics because I know nothing about this

and then suddenly he's a electrochemical expert who can the difference between different lithium batteries. (cypres vs argus)

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[piisfish 135]

wasn't one of Argus's points to use cheapo batteries ?

Don't tell me that Cypres batteries are just the same cheapos with their logo on it, and sold 150x the price....

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[USPA 0]

Not cheapo, but off the shelf mass batteries. A lithium battery is a lithium battery. The logo printed on the battery doesn't suddely change the laws of physics. Sure, I presumme cypres batteries have a higher QC then off the shelve batteries, but this is only an assumption and don't underestimate the QC of proper (brand) off the shelves. After all, the brands have a name to keep. Also an hint: Cypres doesn't have its own battery factory, where do you think they come from?

Lastly because the batteries are not expensive on the Argus you switch them every year, so the batteries don't have to last 2 or 4 years. (although 2 years have been tasted for the argus and function properly).

But this is all offtopic. The point is, lithium batteries are affected by temperature difference, this is a law of physics and is the same for every lithium battery is this world.

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[BKR 0]

I maybe make you laught, but when anybody can goes in a store and buy such batteries you can imagine that a lot of people are going to buy the cheepest one without the same performances. This is only one of the points. The most important point is the responsability of the manufacturer for any accessories installed into its reserve container as TSO say. I do not trust this AAD and I can decide what I want to do. Look, RI has forbidden Vigil into its container.
If the manufacturer of the AAD take the full responsability in case of any problem, I will maybe reconsidered my position.

Jérôme Bunker
Basik Air Concept
www.basik.fr
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Le-Luc-France/BASIK-AIR-CONCEPT/172133350468

[USPA 0]

To replace the batteries, a repack is needed. So most probably only riggers will replace the batteries. Furthermore, concerning the bulletin in general, you can indeed give out any bulletin you wish. I can agree or disagree with your arguments, but that's trivial. Also in The Netherlands, the authorities can just as easy ignore the bulletin if they wish.

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[BKR 0]

One thing Paul,

Packing cycle in several countries is now 1 year and a lot of things can happened during this time. Batteries used into Cypres and Vigil are not the same at all even if they are all lithium, and you cannot find them on the shelf in normal shop as it is possible with those used with the Argus. The Netherlands can do what they wants to do, I spoke with Ronald about this, but in case of a problem they will be entirely responsible, not me.

You might be aware of our responsibility before writing this.

Regards,

Jérôme Bunker
Basik Air Concept
www.basik.fr
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Le-Luc-France/BASIK-AIR-CONCEPT/172133350468

[gjhdiver 0]

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Look, RI has forbidden Vigil into its container.

Indeed it has. Fron the RI website.

STATUS OF VIGIL AAD in RI PRODUCTS
Posted June 12, 2006
As of this date, Rigging Innovations DOES NOT approve the installation and/or use of the Vigil AAD in any RI product. The manufacturer of the Vigil AAD has taken upon themselves to authorize the installation of the Vigil AAD in any Cypres ready or approved harness and container system. This is in opposition to the FAA and the harness and container manufacturer. In accordance with AC105-2C, the AAD installation must be approved by the FAA as part of the harness and container TSO data package. There are certain technical issues that have been identified and need to be resolved before RI can authorize the use of the Vigil in any RI product.

STATUS OF ARGUS AAD
Posted August 9, 2006
The Argus AAD is currently being tested our in our products. At this time the Argus is not approved for use in any RI products.


Argus is not banned in RI products. It's just curently waiting approval after they have tested it's functions and compatabilty.

Jerome is correct. He can decide what goes into his containers. He doesn't have to have a reason that makes sense to anyone but himself. I'm sure that in time, he'll become more comfortable with the Argus. Until then, he has to do whatever he considers right for the security of his business.

[BKR 0]

As you can see I am not the only one, RI, Strong? PDF and Basik have taken the same resolution at this time. I am glad that now you can understand my previous position. For sure I am a "small" manufacturer with "only" 2000 rigs on the field. But now there are thousand and thousand rigs concerned.
For your info, I have not push forward these manufacturers to do the same, they have taken their own decision without any discussion together.

Regards to all of you

Jérôme Bunker
Basik Air Concept
www.basik.fr
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Le-Luc-France/BASIK-AIR-CONCEPT/172133350468