bliston 0 #76 October 5, 2006 why not for the toggles, because then the toggles or risers might "adhere" to the riser covers on the by... that would suck. BenMass Defiance 4-wayFS website sticks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
badlock 0 #77 October 5, 2006 QuoteWhy not using magnets on toggles? I like that I can stick my toggles back to the welcro. A magnet could keep the lower part of the toggles. Just a guess: Each riser can easily touch the other one...... Even if it couldn't result in a "riser lock", it could maybe cause linetwists - especially during linestrech.... Don't be a Lutz! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #78 October 5, 2006 You are right about credit cards, and I wouldn't rub them all over out-of-camera video tapes...but in-camera tapes, and other electronic devices used by jumpers, seem unaffected. When encased in Cordura pockets they are "muted" enough to no longer draw blood, but I know what you mean from handling "raw" magnets. We have tried them on toggles, but they have a nasty habit of constantly re-attaching themselves, which annoyed the test jumpers. They also stuck to open magnetic riser covers, which is a bit more of a problem. Besides, we already have a damn good, velcro-less toggle system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #79 October 5, 2006 I have not been following this thread but just a note: the magnetic closing technology is being commercialized by Bill Booth under license from Atair.Daniel Preston <><> atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #80 October 5, 2006 Quotei have not been following this thread but wanted to point out that the magnetic closing is technology Bill Booth will be commercializing under license from Atair. Absolutely. Atair has an issued patent on this technology for parachute use. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lokky_luke 0 #81 October 6, 2006 Hi This issued patent for Atar, is it hook- up to an patent number? Patent number? Thanks..Lokky_luke VKB#9 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flydude 0 #82 October 6, 2006 Quote Just a guess: Each riser can easily touch the other one...... Even if it couldn't result in a "riser lock", it could maybe cause linetwists - especially during linestrech.... Id like to hear about that to.. What happens if you get a linetwist with these? Will they stick together? Or are they the same polarization, so they reject eachother?A skydiver's famous last words: - Hey! Hold my beer, and watch this...! - If that guy can do it, so can I...! - In 9 out of 10 this will work out just fine. Don't worry about it...! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #83 October 6, 2006 QuoteQuote Just a guess: Each riser can easily touch the other one...... Even if it couldn't result in a "riser lock", it could maybe cause linetwists - especially during linestrech.... Id like to hear about that to.. What happens if you get a linetwist with these? Will they stick together? Or are they the same polarization, so they reject eachother? Being that the magnets are in the rig, not the risers, it doesn't have anything to do with the above. Honestly, I don't think I could get my riser flaps close enough to one another to even come close to touching w/o taking my head off. As for magnets in riser flaps, how does it affect the weight of the rig? Also, I am up in the air on the idea because of traveling with my rig and I am just paranoid about my camera/computer equiptment. Mostly the traveling part. How will this affect being able to carry my rig on a plane with me, now it will have a cypress and a bunch of other metal parts that show up on an x-ray machine. I don't see it being hard to explain to a person "Look they are magnets *click*" but just something to think about?~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #84 October 6, 2006 QuoteAs for magnets in riser flaps, how does it affect the weight of the rig? Sure. My guess is 30-150g. Everything counts . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #85 October 6, 2006 Rare earth magnets are very light, and a lot less dense than the other hardware on the rig. You won't even know they're there, and I doubt the screener at the airport will either. However, as I said above, I wouldn't store my credit cards, or video tapes that are out of your camera, in close proximity (less than 6'') to any magnet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #86 October 8, 2006 QuoteThis issued patent for Atar, is it hook- up to an patent number? Patent number? Here's the application. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #87 October 9, 2006 What type of "rare earth" are you using for magnets? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #88 October 9, 2006 QuoteQuoteThis issued patent for Atar, is it hook- up to an patent number? Patent number? Here's the application. I have to admit.... Patents are great things when people come up with specific innovative ideas... But, I really don't like when people patent the idea of a magnet, possibly electromagnet, being used somewhere, somehow, in a skydiving rig... If you read this patent, they patent all the ways a magnet could be used, and have provisions for ways not even thought of yet... QuoteAs mentioned above, the present invention is not intended to be limited to a system or method which must satisfy one or more of any stated or implied object or feature of the invention and should not be limited to the preferred, exemplary, or primary embodiment(s) described herein. I like the fact they specifically patented the idea of stowing toggles with magnets, the same way my paraglider toggles were stowed 4.5 years before the patent issue date! I hope someone paying royalties for that fights the patent - as this is not a new innovative idea... I got it... I am going to patent the idea of using a toilet tissue somewhere, somehow, relating to skydiving. All you guys who like to throw out a roll and chase it down - you owe me royalties for your cool videos... And those BASE jumpers - you will have to find a new temporary wind indicator or pay me too. I am sorry to sound so sarcastic - but it seems that Atair patented something pretty "ordinary", as my grandfather had a backpack in 1945 that closed with a magnet that I played with in the 80s as a kid... Now, if they came up with some sort of complete system/design that was unique - like a specific way to make the flaps close - I would have a lot more respect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #89 October 9, 2006 QuoteI like the fact they specifically patented the idea of stowing toggles with magnets, the same way my paraglider toggles were stowed 4.5 years before the patent issue date! I hope someone paying royalties for that fights the patent - as this is not a new innovative idea... Unfortunately, it costs money to challenge a patent, and the rules around providing prior art are complicated and less than wholely transparent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 54 #90 October 10, 2006 PICTURES HERE http://www.relativeworkshop.com/images/CC/up_close_mag_cover.jpg and http://www.relativeworkshop.com/images/CC/mag_closed.jpg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bofh 0 #91 October 10, 2006 QuoteUnfortunately, it costs money to challenge a patent, and the rules around providing prior art are complicated and less than wholely transparent. In some countries it is better to simply ignore the patent and if sued, show the prior art. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #92 October 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteI like the fact they specifically patented the idea of stowing toggles with magnets, the same way my paraglider toggles were stowed 4.5 years before the patent issue date! I hope someone paying royalties for that fights the patent - as this is not a new innovative idea... Unfortunately, it costs money to challenge a patent, and the rules around providing prior art are complicated and less than wholely transparent. Well it would have to actually be prior art. This is clearly a novel idea. My PG toggles are secured to the risers with magnets, but it bears no more similarity to this invention than it does to a fridge magnet. Cloth riser cover - tuck tabs with built in magnets seems like a great solution to a problem that people have been struggling with for years. If it was obvious it would have been done before now. Powerful magnets are a technology, this is one novel application of that technology. I'm impressed by RW for licensing this & bringing it to market instead of the "not invented here" attitude you sometimes see from innovative industry leaders. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #93 October 13, 2006 QuoteMy PG toggles are secured to the risers with magnets, but it bears no more similarity to this invention than it does to a fridge magnet. Read the patent... They patented any use of a magnet in skydiving, including attaching the toggles to the risers... Quote [0022] For illustrative purposes only, the present invention will be described with respect to protective flaps for use of parachutes or the like, though one skilled in the art will readily recognize that the present invention has numerous uses on parachute rigs such as, but not limited to, securing toggles to the risers, replacing hook and loop fasteners used in pilot chute bridal hesitation, securing instrumentation, and the like. Quote[0031] As mentioned above, the present invention is not intended to be limited to a system or method which must satisfy one or more of any stated or implied object or feature of the invention and should not be limited to the preferred, exemplary, or primary embodiment(s) described herein. The foregoing description of a preferred embodiment of the invention has been presented for purposes of illustration and description. It is not intended to be exhaustive or to limit the invention to the precise form disclosed. Obvious modifications or variations are possible in light of the above teachings. The embodiment was chosen and described to provide the best illustration of the principles of the invention and its practical application to thereby enable one of ordinary skill in the art to utilize the invention in various embodiments and with various modifications as is suited to the particular use contemplated. All such modifications and variations are within the scope of the invention as determined by the claims when interpreted in accordance with breadth to which they are fairly, legally and equitably entitled. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #94 October 13, 2006 You have to look at the claims and some individual claims may be invalid while others are enforcable. IANAL but i'd suggest if they claimed magnets + parachutes I expect that would be too broad. Equally if they claimed magnets securing toggles to risers there would be some prior art (details could be important though) , but that's not the what's going on here. Patents often try to 'cover the bases' to avoid trivial changes from circumventing the patent. IANAL. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,382 #95 October 14, 2006 QuoteRare earth magnets are very light, and a lot less dense than the other hardware on the rig. You won't even know they're there, and I doubt the screener at the airport will either. However, as I said above, I wouldn't store my credit cards, or video tapes that are out of your camera, in close proximity (less than 6'') to any magnet. 2 quick questions: 1. Are the magnets in the white part of the rig in the photos, or in the black part? 2. How close must an ordinary compass be to the magnets, to be influenced by the magnets?"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #96 October 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteRare earth magnets are very light, and a lot less dense than the other hardware on the rig. You won't even know they're there, and I doubt the screener at the airport will either. However, as I said above, I wouldn't store my credit cards, or video tapes that are out of your camera, in close proximity (less than 6'') to any magnet. 2 quick questions: 1. Are the magnets in the white part of the rig in the photos, or in the black part? 2. How close must an ordinary compass be to the magnets, to be influenced by the magnets? 1. The magnets are in pairs, on both sides. 2. Magnets will affect compasses if you get closer than about 18 inches, and the effect is below 5 degrees until you get closer than 12 inches. Only a tall guy, sitting backwards in the front right position of a Cessna can get them close enough to matter. The magnets do not affect the gyro compass, GPS system, or the pilots eyeballs, so there is very little chance that they will ever create a navigation problem aboard jump ships. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brabzzz 0 #97 October 15, 2006 Is there an (un?)official line regarding the magnets and Airtec (or other geeks) electonics not interacting more than is healthy? I'm no engineer so excuse my ignorance if it has no effect whatsoever! --------------------------------------- Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club www.skydivebristoluni.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,382 #98 October 15, 2006 QuoteIs there an (un?)official line regarding the magnets and Airtec (or other geeks) electonics not interacting more than is healthy? I'm no engineer so excuse my ignorance if it has no effect whatsoever! I am an electrical engineer, so I'll take a stab at answering your question; Stationary magnetic fields have no effect on electrical devices, but rapidly moving magnetic fields will induce electrical currents in conductors. A device designed to create electrical currents by rapidly moving magnetic fields across conductors is called a generator. The reason I asked Bill my second question was because I was wondering how the magnets might influence a navigational compass carried by the jumper."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #99 October 15, 2006 We have so far found that our magnets do not affect electronic devices like AAD's, Pro-trac's, i-pods, or video cameras. They will however "swing" a compass if you get them closer the 18 inches. However, the effect is not that large (under 5 degrees) until you get closer than 12 inches. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flydude 0 #100 October 16, 2006 Sorry if this is answered before, or Ive misunderstood something: Are these magnets optional for all UPT (RWS) rigs? It says on the frontpage that its for some micron sizes. But whatabout the Vector III M-seires rigs? And if its only optional for Micron, what is the difference between them?A skydiver's famous last words: - Hey! Hold my beer, and watch this...! - If that guy can do it, so can I...! - In 9 out of 10 this will work out just fine. Don't worry about it...! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
