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labrys

When someone is a complete "dick" about advice.

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Depends on the situation. If it is absolute need to know or else you die information, and previous tactics have failed...being a dick might be the best solution.



Break that down, okay... when something is "absolute need to know or else you die" then the basics haven't had a chance.
Owned by Remi #?

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Means its been told previously in a polite manner, but the person on the receiving end of the advice still has not cooperated.



ad-vice

–noun
1. an opinion or recommendation offered as a guide to action, conduct, etc.: I shall act on your advice.
2. a communication, esp. from a distance, containing information: Advice from abroad informs us that the government has fallen. Recent diplomatic advices have been ominous.
3. an official notification, esp. one pertaining to a business agreement: an overdue advice.

To me it sounds like you're trying to force someone do what they don't want to do. Advices are about consideration and free choice. In this case it's more of an order from your side rather than advice if you're demanding your advice to be obeyed.
"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

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Which is why being a dick when giving advice should be reserved to only those things which can cause harm to one or more individuals. Downsizing for example. DZO could first be polite to the jumper, then if the advice is not taken he could go towards more extreme measures if the jumper is definitely putting himself and others in danger. Makes perfect sense, I don't see why it's being debated.

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should be kicked in the mouth. There is one guy in particular I should have done this to last july.



And if his kicker is bigger than your kicker you could find yourself on the receiving end of an ass whoop'n.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Makes perfect sense, I don't see why it's being debated.



Because we're adults and make our own decisions. We're not students, under supervision. Anyway, advising students is the instructor's job.

If someone wants to hammer in and can't be persuaded against it, they're going to hammer in - or learn from a very steep curve.

I've never noticed a lack of inquisitiveness or hunger for advice from young jumpers. I've noticed a desire to move too quickly, to push boundaries too soon. But on the other hand, one doesn't progress without straining borders.

Now, if a DZO thinks a jumper is making choices that exceed his abilities, and gives unheeded advice, then the DZO has the option of disallowing said jumper from jumping at his DZ. He doesn't have the option of making that jumper's choices.

If you don't like someone's choices and think they are a danger, tell them if you want. Try to persuade them if that's your desire. If you don't feel safe jumping with them, don't jump with them.

If they choose to ignore your advice, that's their prerogative; deal with it. But if you can't handle someone making their own choices, don't be a dick.

That just makes you a dick.

That's my advice.
"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

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If you don't like someone's choices and think they are a danger, tell them if you want. Try to persuade them if that's your desire. If you don't feel safe jumping with them, don't jump with them.

If they choose to ignore your advice, that's their prerogative; deal with it. But if you can't handle someone making their own choices, don't be a dick.

What he said. If it's important enough to be a dick (and it might be), then it's also important enough not to jump with that person, and to tell others what's going on so they can make an informed decision.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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Sure there are times when I felt someone could have been nicer giving advice, but after a few minutes I realize that I am always grateful for advice. It also depends on the situation, like if the "dick" calls you out in front of a lot of people. In the end, I have always benefited from advice in whatever form it is given to me.

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I've seen some people be dicks about giving advice (or managing others), and others be dicks about listening to it (or being managed by others). By my experience, more often than not it's because they're dicks to begin with.

This applies across the board, not just in high-risk activities like skydiving.

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if someone is a "complete dick about advice" i made a promise in the not so recent past: I won't run and deliver first aid if some dick biffs in. and i made my friends promise to hold me back if i made an attempt to. wouldn't be nice to deliver a nice kick in the gut because i stumble in the rush getting there :|

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

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In the end, I have always benefited from advice in whatever form it is given to me.


Lucky you.

Whether those dicks acknowledge it or not - I'm still polishing THEIR (unnecessary) damage.
I took advice, sure I did
but with red-neck-mind-gang-rape.

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[pontiacgtp00]
...could first be polite to the jumper, then if the advice is not taken he could go towards more extreme measures if the jumper is definitely putting himself and others in danger. Makes perfect sense, I don't see why it's being debated.



This is just a bunch of informations,
the debate is on style and it's effect
What goes around, comes later.

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Skydiving is an unforgiving sport and people do need to understand that. Unfortunately, for almost every question asked here, someone will think the best response is to bash the poor guy over the head and set him on fire. What that means is anyone tough enough to take the flak or dumb enough to not care, might stick around long enough to take their place in the pecking order of internet assholes. Everyone else just learns not to ask questions.

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The problem here is a large percentage of the people on here (and skydiving in general) have huge overinflated egos, and if someone calls them a retard or a douche, they get hurt. I've met Dave, and he is exactly like in person as he is here. Not so nice, calls you out and is right on the money with his advice. Be a dick, don't be a dick, I really don't care how I get the information, as long as I do. Nut-up, and take it like the retard you're (or I'm) acting like. It may save your life. Or mine.

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HEY EVERYONE! LOOK AT ME!!!

Resident dickhead, in the house with some big news. Big big news.

Check this out - http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3718663;page=3;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

I was going to lay into this guy, but thought to myself, 'Self, maybe the pansies are right. Maybe the soft sell is the way to go. Let's see if I can't make a sensible, compassionate plea for some understanding and good decision making'.

Read his reply to guage my success, than allow me to bask in the warm glow of my utter failure. You see, nothing is going get through to this guy, and I should have went with my first instinct because, if nothing less, it would have at least been entertaining.

Quick edit - I wrote this post after I penned #54 on the thread in question. Since then, the OP has been kind enough to add post #55 for our viewing pleasure, and it's pure gold.

Even if I was secretly posting as the OP, and just making this shit up, I could have never come up with that on my own. I think that just might become my first sig line quote. Seven years with a blank sig line, and finally I see the light.

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Resident dickhead, in the house with some big news. Big big news.

Check this out - http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3718663;page=3;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;



First ... Dave ... well done and thanks!! In spite of what I am going to type just below, I still think the gentler approach will work more often than the slap in the face!

Now, about Dave's last post above. Sad as it is that he won't listen, I had to laugh reading through that sequence. I think he, in his own way, illustrated both sides in this thread. The soft sell SURE didn't work on him, but yet he thought it was NOT a soft sell. He obviously isn't going to listen to anyone regardless of the approach taken in giving the advice, but definitely seems much less receptive of any given in what he perceives as other than a kid glove manner. I can only conclude that much of the earlier posts are right ... different people need different approaches to really get their attention, so all someone can do it provide their input in the way they see fit, and hope the advice is heeded. There are always going to be some who won't listen no matter how the advice is couched, but at least you cared enough to take the time to try. I hope nobody gives up on making that effort, for the sake of those who DO try to pay attention!!
As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

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Actually, Dave, I thought your last post was still rather sensitive. I thought I was the "dick"
--------
Been following this one, biting my tongue (or would that be fingers), but it's time to be "a real dick about advice"
Sorry, kid, but you are a stupid, ignorant, arrogant, asshole. The fact that you are slightly less stupid or ignorant than some others you know is more than made for by your arrogance.
You will end up dead or severly injured, or worse you will kill or severly injure someone else.
Not totally your fault, even I don't understand how a Sabre 150 at 1/1 has become a conservative canopy choice for someone with under 50 jumps.
_____________
Unfortunately, he still doesn't get it.
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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I still think the gentler approach will work more often than the slap in the face!


I don't think of it as a "slap" and "face", not even close, pfff..

however:
what a beautifull comment by you

btw
...even softy Dave can't put Natural Selection 'on hold'
What goes around, comes later.

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...even softy Dave can't put Natural Selection 'on hold'

:D:D

I try to be low key with my advice. If it's a safety thing that concerns me, such as exit separation or pattern safety, and they seem resistant to learning, I'll go "dick" on them. Not too long ago, a older, out of shape novice was making terrible landings. Twice, after watching his landings, I told him I could give him some advice to improve his landings. He was all BS and didn't want to bother to listen. I have to admit I wasn't shocked or dismayed when he broke his leg. I could see it coming, and he didn't care. :|

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<<>>

I know that kind of person. I like to see our sport as as inclusive one in a way. Our sport requires knowing equipment, technique to use it, technique to be safe for ourself and others. Therefore the best would be to join our sport with the proper attitude of concern, curiousness and discipline. It is a matter of survival.

But unfortunately, our sport attract people who want to get a lot of fun (it's my case) but do not want to have that attitude described above. Those persons do not want to invest time, a minimum of money and effort to master the basic of skydiving and be safe. They are not interested by the technical aspect of the sport. And they don't listen to experienced jumpers.

I don't want DZO to be seen as strict persons but sometimes they should show more authority when repeated mistakes are being made. It's a touchy task to get a good balance between being a good businessman $$$ and look at the prevention of the safety. They have safety advisors but they are reluctant to listen to them when the concerned person is a "big shot" or a "skygod".

Recently, I saw an experienced person organize a 7 way FS. I was in the airplane jumping with a friend of mine. I saw this organizer jumping without any helmet while at jump altitude the temperature was - 15 Celcius or 5 Farenheit. Obviously that guy was playing skygod showing implicitly he had a D license (in Canada when having a D license, permission of the DZO and not in position of instructor or coach you can jump without a helmet). He certainly never thought about what would be the cooling factor on his bare head at such a temperature and at 120 MPH. It is known that the brain needs heat since it consumes 20% of the all oxygen. This time, showing he was above safety consideration that person showed a bad example for all and potentially dangerous ignorance.
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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Thanks for the heads up. I was going to post something over there, but then I read that the OP jumps at MileHi, at which point my brain started to hurt trying to gather all the thoughts I was having.

Your post about how big were his 'big ways' and how low were his 'low' pulls was spot on. Talk about putting the cart before the horse. At the rate the OP is going, by the time he's doing actual big ways or pulling low, he'll be three canopies smaller than the 159 he's jumping now. Or not jumping due to injury.

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