Did I make the right choice? Down wind landing..

[Tuna-Salad 0]

So several small mistakes led to me landing off saturday..

I ended up making a down wind landing rather than try to fly over a group of trees (I would of made it over them, but not by much)

So.. was making a 180 and doing a down winder a better decision than trying to make it over a stand of trees for an into the wind landing? I feel that it was the right choice, just wondering how others felt..

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[airtwardo 6]

Since I take it you're not asking this from a hospital bed the answer is obvious!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Gary73 8]

Hard to say without having been there, but you're okay, so even if it wasn't the ideal decision, it was good enough, right?

People put too much emphasis on landing into the wind. Downwind landings don't kill people. Low turns, bad swoops, and canopy collisions are the things that do us in.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[JohnRich 4]

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So.. was making a 180 and doing a down winder a better decision than trying to make it over a stand of trees for an into the wind landing? I feel that it was the right choice, just wondering how others felt..

If you weren't sure you would clear the trees, then running downwind for an alternate landing area was the correct thing to do.

However, what you might have done better was this: make your decision higher so that you have time to run downwind to avoid the trees, and still have time to safely turn back into the wind for landing.

Knowing when to make that call and run for an alternate landing site is tough. Play it conservative. Better not to push your luck, and take a long walk, then to end up hurting yourself trying to get home for a short walk.

And if your friends criticize your decision ("Aw, you could've made it!"), don't worry about that - it's your ass on the line. You're the one that was monitoring your progress across the ground, along with your sink rate, judging whether or not you would clear the obstacle. You're the only one that can make that call about when to give it up and break for another landing area.

[JohanW 0]

Problem with landing into the wind behind the obstacle is it's often turbulent there.

So decide high enough to land "far enough" behind the obstacle, or next to it, relative to the windline.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[Tuna-Salad 0]

Definately one of my bigger mistakes was waiting too long to abort the landing approach... I knew where I wanted to land, but did not have an exact spot picked out..

After turning with the wind and picking up speed things like "I just fucked up", and "this one is gonna hurt" were some of my first thoughts.. I made the choice early on that I would not try to stand it up.. and probably did a pretty good PLF...

Nice to see from other jumpers I made the right choice though

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[wildcard451 0]

I watched a jumper make a landing into one of our restricted fields Sunday, and behind a small hill it looked to be a rough landing. I ran out to check on her, and her reasoning was that she couldn't safely make the designated landing area. She was safe, all was well, end of discussion.

Yours as well. You are ok, so is everyone else. Not ideal, and as others have said to plan your landings a little better, but you lived, hopefully you learned, and you will take this knowledge with you.

[billvon 2,396]

As long as you didn't almost collide with someone, or force someone else to have to abort - there's nothing wrong with a downwind landing to deal with a bad spot.

[jdfreefly 1]

If you lived and didn't get hurt, you did the right thing at that moment in time.

A better question to ask yourself right now is what you would do differently on that ENTIRE skydive. From your comments it's pretty clear that you realize the mistake.

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one of my bigger mistakes was waiting too long to abort the landing approach

The time to deal with these issues is at 2000 feet, not 100.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[Tuna-Salad 0]

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If you lived and didn't get hurt, you did the right thing at that moment in time.

A better question to ask yourself right now is what you would do differently on that ENTIRE skydive. From your comments it's pretty clear that you realize the mistake.

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one of my bigger mistakes was waiting too long to abort the landing approach

The time to deal with these issues is at 2000 feet, not 100.

It was not just one mistake that led to the off landing.. it was several. Those have been realized and learned from.. I decided around 700 feet that I needed to change my plan and in honesty should of had a better one.. higher..

Not checking the spot for myself before climbing out, not looking to see where I was in free fall and opening higher to account for it were among the major mistakes that led to the outcome..

I consider myself lucky that I did not break anything doing a down wind landing on a canopy I'd only flown once before...

This should also be a good thread for people wanting to downsize.. I'm still under a fairly large canopy but if I had downsized rapidly then I would of had additional speed and the outcome could of been a lot uglier..

So note to those who wanna downsize for that small rig.. take into consideration one day you will land off, and one day you will land down wind... until you see how fast the ground disappears under you.. might be a wise idea to hold off on that smaller canopy..

(There IS video, but we don't need to see that now do we?)

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[airtwardo 6]

(There IS video, but we don't need to see that now do we?)















YUP!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[davelepka 4]

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I decided around 700 feet that I needed to change my plan and in honesty should of had a better one.. higher..

This is a great example of why you should use, and plan for, a landing pattern. It makes these types of calls much easier to make.

If you're just looking at the ground, and how much you can cover before you need to flare at 15ft., you leave yourself open to getting low before you realize that what you want it not what you're going to get. Now you're at 300 or 400 ft with very few options.

If you look at things in terms of a landing pattern, now you're aiming for your pattern entry point, say 750 ft. above a point upwind of where you want to land. By the time you realize you're not going to make it to your pattern entry point, you'll be 300 or 400 above that point, which is 1000+ above the ground. Much more time and altitude to work with than the previous example.

A word about downwinders - it is true that jumpers should learn to land downwind. It should be done on a day with very light winds, and under the supervision of a member of the DZ instructional staff. The idea is to get jumpers to understand that the vertical component of the landing is the same as into the wind, it's just the increase in horizontal speed that changes.

However, when you take that theory to an off-field landing, the increased horizontal speed can become a significant factor. There's a big difference between the wide open, manicured landing area at the DZ, and whatever field you can reach when landing off. Literally, if you can imagine an object or terrain feature, there's a chance it will be present in the field you're landing in, and excess forward speed can be a very bad thing when you encoutner said object or terrain feature.

As always your number one priority is to land with your wing level, and into the wind is secondary. When landing off, the importance of the secondary feature is increased.

Always have a plan B. When you open on every jump, select an LZ in between you and the DZ 'just in case'. Have a landing pattern worked out for this LZ. If you fly right over it and cruise back to the DZ, good for you. If you're coming up short, you already have a plan B.

If you have to resort to plan B, see if there's a plan C you can fall back on if plan B starts looking a little too far off. Repeat this process until you're safely on the ground.

[erdnarob 1]

Down wind landing is OK when needed. When you have to struggle to find a safe landing place (out of the DZ) the priority is having the best obstacle free landing. This is why a good spot is important. People rely too much on their canopy performances and become lazy about spotting or evaluating properly the right spot. The same adventure happened to me in Florida when my 10 way group exited way too early (ligth was green ??). I found myself above the forest and understood soon enough I couldn't make it back to the DZ. Early decision is important to find a good landing place. I then spotted a glade and for the first time in a long time, I did an accuracy approach but this time with my Katana. I passed at few feet from a tree on purpose in order to get the maximum length of the small glade. Everything was OK but little bushes were waiting for me on the ground. My landing was not too bad considering the circumstances but this time I had to forget a nice stand up. We were 5 jumpers in the forest and it took me 40 minutes to come back to the road where a truck was waiting for us.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[davelepka 4]

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My landing was not too bad considering the circumstances but this time I had to forget a nice stand up.

This is a great point, which I should have mentioned.

When landing off, the PLF / no PLF line should be moved a few notches to the more conservative side. A 'good' landing can result in a twisted ankle due to a hidden depression in the ground, or thick growth of grass or weeds.

Again, this is not the manicured open landing area back at the DZ. Additionally, if you are injured, help is much further away. In the case of a twisted ankle the result is you laying there for 30 min by yourself. In the case of a more serious injury, you may be much worse off because of the delay in care.

Also, if you twist an ankle, you're not jumping for weeks or months to follow, and that really sucks.

[mdrejhon 8]

Almost a year ago, I had a lineover after one opening on a very long spot, that cleared but left me a little low over a village with few options. I had a choice between an aggressive sashay to a tiny grassy plot almost directly below me that was surrounded by tall trees, or seeing if I could fly over an apple orchard to a larger spot. Ultimately, I decided to fly in a straight line over the narrow grassy median on the side of the orchard between the trees and the road (there were no wires or power poles, but was also mindful to avoid the fence that separated the orchard from the road). I flew far enough to the field though, and landed fine in the bigger field which wasn't bigger than a large backyard. A long track as a bigway outer, followed immediately by a mal for 2 seconds that cleared itself before I almost decided to cutaway (it would have been my first time).

Was one my scariest landings and the most difficult quick-decision landing area, because there was just no way to easily superimpose a regular landing pattern over where I was, once I determined wind direction and realized my spot was the worst location I ever had.

The landing was cross-wind, stand-up, in tall grass. Even if it was going to be a downwinder, I'd have followed a similiar path as it was obviously safer in the direction I decided to go in, regardless of wind direction, given the relatively low altitude (~1500ish) my canopy stabilized above an urban area.

[kmills0705 0]

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So several small mistakes led to me landing off saturday..

I ended up making a down wind landing rather than try to fly over a group of trees (I would of made it over them, but not by much)

So.. was making a 180 and doing a down winder a better decision than trying to make it over a stand of trees for an into the wind landing? I feel that it was the right choice, just wondering how others felt..

Question: What were the winds? Are we talking 5 mph or 20 mph. Big difference. Regardless though you absolutely without a doubt did the right thing. Why are people afraid of downwind landings? Not a big deal.

Let's remember a couple things here.

Landing Priorities (downwind is most definitely NOT secondary or in the priorities!).
1) Land with wing level (i.e. not in a turn)
2) Land to avoid obstacles (you did - trees) and by avoiding obstacles... only make minor corrections in doing so - shoulder-level turns
3) Flare at least half way
4) Prepare to PLF.

There you have it. Following your landing priorities. Remember your skydive has not ended when your canopy opens.

Kim Mills
USPA D21696
Tandem I, AFF I and Static Line I

[YISkyDive 0]

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So several small mistakes led to me landing off saturday..

I ended up making a down wind landing rather than try to fly over a group of trees (I would of made it over them, but not by much)

So.. was making a 180 and doing a down winder a better decision than trying to make it over a stand of trees for an into the wind landing? I feel that it was the right choice, just wondering how others felt..

I did not read the entire thread - and I think you noted that you started bailing out to late - That would be the mistake that led to your downwind landing.

I personally am of the opinion that downwind landings should be avoided as much as safely possible when performing off field landings, however not to be avoided by the use of a low turn, swoop, hook turn or canopy collision.

The reason I say this is you don't know the ground as well, usually taller than average grass and everything from Rocks to holes lay there. (I speak of the Northeast US at the moment.)

The key is to set up early enough and run the entire approach through your head ahead of time. If you can see the airport use it to confirm your pattern with what you would do at the airport - then note your landing hazards and revise your approach accordingly. In the case of the trees – when I am faced with tall trees going into a tight landing area I use half breaks to lessen my glide while above the tree(s) and then once clear I go into full flight and drop the canopy in. Keep in mind you may not have all your flare power (depending on the high of the tree) so be ready to PLF.

That’s how I handle it. Its worked a number of times for me. I land off chasing Tandem mains all the time with my Velo111 loaded at 2.4 : 1 and I'm not bothered by landing off so long as I set up my pattern 1.5K or higher.

Also: seriously, nice attitude about taking the time to figure out what happened and why.

[MarkM 0]

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I consider myself lucky that I did not break anything doing a down wind landing on a canopy I'd only flown once before...

Sound like luck had little to do with it. You made a decision before getting on the plane to fly a canopy with a comfortable WL and it worked well for you even if it was new.

One thing though is don't be at all uncomfortable with the idea of landing out. It shouldn't be a big deal. Not ideal, sure, but it'll happen to you again and it should always be a comfortable option in your head when you start to navigate home.

[wildcard451 0]

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Let's remember a couple things here.

Landing Priorities (downwind is most definitely NOT secondary or in the priorities!).
1) Land with wing level (i.e. not in a turn)
2) Land to avoid obstacles (you did - trees) and by avoiding obstacles... only make minor corrections in doing so - shoulder-level turns
3) Flare at least half way
4) Prepare to PLF.

There you have it. Following your landing priorities. Remember your skydive has not ended when your canopy opens.

One quick clarification: Shoulder level turns will produce radically different results based on canopy type and brake settings. "Gentle turns that do not significantly alter the roll and pitch of the wing" would be a better way to say it INHO, albeit long-winded.

Then again, if you are flying a wing that does react radically to small inputs, I hope you already know this.

[kmills0705 0]

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Let's remember a couple things here.

Landing Priorities (downwind is most definitely NOT secondary or in the priorities!).
1) Land with wing level (i.e. not in a turn)
2) Land to avoid obstacles (you did - trees) and by avoiding obstacles... only make minor corrections in doing so - shoulder-level turns
3) Flare at least half way
4) Prepare to PLF.

There you have it. Following your landing priorities. Remember your skydive has not ended when your canopy opens.

One quick clarification: Shoulder level turns will produce radically different results based on canopy type and brake settings. "Gentle turns that do not significantly alter the roll and pitch of the wing" would be a better way to say it INHO, albeit long-winded.

Then again, if you are flying a wing that does react radically to small inputs, I hope you already know this.

This is true Wildcard. I was responding to him specifically after looking at the type and size canopy he jumps. I have learned when giving instruction to give them specifics that they can related to. "Gentle" is interpretive.

And in general when you are flying a high performance canopy you would know how to fly it (well I would hope).

Kim Mills
USPA D21696
Tandem I, AFF I and Static Line I

[popsjumper 2]

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I have learned when giving instruction to give them specifics that they can related to. "Gentle" is interpretive.

Good stuff, Ms Mills. Kudos.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Good job, Tuna.

It's often the ones that are obsessed with landing directly into the wind that get hurt.




Besides, a good triple-roll PLF is good for the soul.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[pmags88 0]

i have seen the video and am wondering if i should post it
hmmmmm

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

#1 You landed safely.

#2 You didn't endanger anyone else.

Everything else is fairly trivial compared to 1 & 2.

You said you would have cleared the trees, but not by much. What if the wind had picked up just a little?

Unless I am absolutely sure I will clear an obstacle by a safe margin, I won't cross it. There aren't any go-arounds under canopy. Tree landings suck.

Just like chopping a marginal canopy, as long as 1 & 2 above are accomplished, I won't second guess your decision.

Each situation is a little different, but with the facts you gave I probably would have done the same thing.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[danornan 64]

Landing down wind SHOULD not be a problem and if you are not comfortable doing it, it's time to start practicing in a location that will not interfere with others landing in a predictable pattern. Or stay away from Perris Valley, CA, where it is quite common.

On the DZ, be predictable. Off of the DZ, it's your option and if you are not sure you can make an obstacle, land where you can miss it. If that means downwind, so be it.....

Don't chase the windsock and land the way the first person down did, as the pattern has been set.

Dano