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obelixtim

Halloween party picture. Trailing hazards.

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On the home page at the moment is a great picture of a girl dressed in a blue tiger stripe outfit, a nice picture for sure.

But I can see that the costume has a long tail, and she has some orange material trailing from her head/shoulder region, a mane perhaps. Not sure what that material is.

I have some concern that that picture shows some potential hazards which could cause problems.

Any time you attach yourself to "extra" stuff on a skydive, you are adding danger.

The tail and mane are in positions which could easily entangle with a pilot chute or other bits of equipment during deployment, and add problems in a cutaway situation.

If it can happen, it will.

I am concerned that people might think its OK to attach "extras" when jumping, and its just a bit of fun on a one off jump, but the reality is skydiving has hazards enough without adding unnecessary ones. Not sure of the experience level of the jumper in the pic, but I would hope anyone considering jumps like this run it past an experienced DZSO or demo jumper first.

The ground takes no prisoners.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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JWest

It's calculated risk and that jumpers choice to put themselves in that situation.



I'm well aware of the fact its a calculated risk, I am just curious as to the level of calculation involved.

My impression? Not a lot. I could be wrong of course.

Is that jumper making a good or bad choice? Again I'm not sure, but one successful jump doesn't necessarily mean it is a good choice. I'm aware its probably only a one off jump, but my concern is that others with low experience might try to emulate that to make a cool photo.

As far as choices go, its never been my choice to pick up broken skydivers, its something I've had to do. Some of them people who made bad choices. Responsibility is a two way street.

I've done plenty of demo and test jumps, and even with the most careful and calculated planning things can go tits up. Been there, done that.

There are a couple of things there I would have issues with before allowing someone to jump in that outfit.

The material (again I'm not sure what it is, or how it is attached) trailing from the neck/head area seems to be broken neck territory if it gets caught up in the deployment or a possible cutaway process.

That tail would be ideally situated to catch a pilot chute on deployment - horseshoe territory.

Two very nasty and not impossible scenarios.

Such a jump has to be very carefully thought through, and is something newbies to the sport need to be well aware of.

You can take nothing for granted on a skydive, a moments inattention, ignorance or carelessness will kill really quickly.

No one is immune.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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I guess I just didn't quite get the point of your post. It came off as more of a "Damn kids these days doing unsafe things without thinking about it" post than anything else. Yes there are hazards but there are safety conscious people at every DZ. It is a safe assumption that the hazards of the costume were at least thought about. As for the costume itself the orange stuff you see is braided into their hair. The tail while it is a snag hazard the chances of it interfering enough to prevent deployment doesn't seam high enough to scrap the costume jump. I would be more worried about a riser ripping out my hair.

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JWest

I guess I just didn't quite get the point of your post. It came off as more of a "Damn kids these days doing unsafe things without thinking about it" post than anything else. Yes there are hazards but there are safety conscious people at every DZ. It is a safe assumption that the hazards of the costume were at least thought about. As for the costume itself the orange stuff you see is braided into their hair. The tail while it is a snag hazard the chances of it interfering enough to prevent deployment doesn't seam high enough to scrap the costume jump. I would be more worried about a riser ripping out my hair.



The point of my post was to point out a couple of the obvious hazards I saw when I first looked at the pic. Maybe there are a few people who look at it and only think "what a cool pic".

And while there are safety conscious people at most DZ's, it isn't always the case. I've seen unsafe practices at quite a few DZ's where the "safety conscious" people were not even aware of a hazard, or simply didn't see it. At big boogies, often there is no one walking around with a big stick checking things out.

There are no such things as a "safe assumption", the golden rule ESPECIALLY with skydiving, is assume nothing.

The tail is in an ideal position to catch a half hitch around a bridle cord, and that, my friend, can cause major problems:

Horse shoe > bag lift off > partial deployment > spinning malfunction > cutaway and reserve deployment while still attached to a ball of shit > reserve entanglement >DEATH.

Its already been done.

The costume jump may not need to be scrapped at all, but maybe there were one or two things that could be done to make it safer. Its a bit late after being scalped to think it might have been a better idea to wear a simple hair tie.

And as far as your "those damn kids" comment goes, we see enough disparaging of the "old farts" by young hotshots who think they know everything, to know that it is totally a septic attitude to take.

Some of us have been around and seen (and tried) stuff that would make some of todays generation shit their pants. We've seen the consequences of screw ups as well. Its not good to see people repeating them.

Rather than being looked on as killjoys who want to spoil someones fun, all we want is to pass on sound advice that might stop skydiving killing you.

It pisses me off when people seem to almost take offence at proferred advice, rather than thinking it could be life saving information. And that happens quite a lot. "We're cool, what do you oldies know, talk to the hand".

Condescending much?

I can sense that attitude in your reply....but maybe its just that I'm a little touchy. I'm an old fart, after all......

And I'm always up for an argument!!!
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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I've seen a similar hazard with someone jumping a superman costume. Looked cool on video, but boy that cape sure flew about and wrapped itself up. Then it alternated between being a distorted 'flag' and a 'snake' whipping around. Perhaps it was not long enough to be too much of a main deployment hazard, and a reserve fired past it on a total mal would most likely clear, but it wasn't great to have that whipping around in the burble over their back.

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Horse shoe > bag lift off > partial deployment > spinning malfunction > cutaway and reserve deployment while still attached to a ball of shit > reserve entanglement >DEATH.

Its already been done.

.........................................................................

We learned that bloody lesson back in 1981.
What new knowledge will we acquire by repeating that mistake???????

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riggerrob



Horse shoe > bag lift off > partial deployment > spinning malfunction > cutaway and reserve deployment while still attached to a ball of shit > reserve entanglement >DEATH.

Its already been done.

.........................................................................

We learned that bloody lesson back in 1981.
What new knowledge will we acquire by repeating that mistake???????



Pre 1981 by a long shot.

Ripcord stops anyone?
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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obelixtim

***I guess I just didn't quite get the point of your post. It came off as more of a "Damn kids these days doing unsafe things without thinking about it" post than anything else. Yes there are hazards but there are safety conscious people at every DZ. It is a safe assumption that the hazards of the costume were at least thought about. As for the costume itself the orange stuff you see is braided into their hair. The tail while it is a snag hazard the chances of it interfering enough to prevent deployment doesn't seam high enough to scrap the costume jump. I would be more worried about a riser ripping out my hair.



The point of my post was to point out a couple of the obvious hazards I saw when I first looked at the pic. Maybe there are a few people who look at it and only think "what a cool pic".

And while there are safety conscious people at most DZ's, it isn't always the case. I've seen unsafe practices at quite a few DZ's where the "safety conscious" people were not even aware of a hazard, or simply didn't see it. At big boogies, often there is no one walking around with a big stick checking things out.

There are no such things as a "safe assumption", the golden rule ESPECIALLY with skydiving, is assume nothing.

The tail is in an ideal position to catch a half hitch around a bridle cord, and that, my friend, can cause major problems:

Horse shoe > bag lift off > partial deployment > spinning malfunction > cutaway and reserve deployment while still attached to a ball of shit > reserve entanglement >DEATH.

Its already been done.

The costume jump may not need to be scrapped at all, but maybe there were one or two things that could be done to make it safer. Its a bit late after being scalped to think it might have been a better idea to wear a simple hair tie.

And as far as your "those damn kids" comment goes, we see enough disparaging of the "old farts" by young hotshots who think they know everything, to know that it is totally a septic attitude to take.

Some of us have been around and seen (and tried) stuff that would make some of todays generation shit their pants. We've seen the consequences of screw ups as well. Its not good to see people repeating them.

Rather than being looked on as killjoys who want to spoil someones fun, all we want is to pass on sound advice that might stop skydiving killing you.

It pisses me off when people seem to almost take offence at proferred advice, rather than thinking it could be life saving information. And that happens quite a lot. "We're cool, what do you oldies know, talk to the hand".

Condescending much?

I can sense that attitude in your reply....but maybe its just that I'm a little touchy. I'm an old fart, after all......

And I'm always up for an argument!!!


You old timers did do some absolutely insane stuff. I guess the reason I didn't get your post at first it because I saw the same things you did. Then assumed most people would. Felt like you were pointing out something obvious.

A cape? Nope.

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riggerrob


Ripcord stops anyone?



Not really. Jump No. 50 in Switzerland - the ink on my German licence still was wet - I packed like an idiot, was so sure it was OK. It was not, it was my 1st reserve.

Just a bunch of sh*t over my head, my head was wrapped with lines which nearly cut off my left ear, my long ponytail was cut in half. Until today, I do not understand why only my long hair was cut and not the skin of my head ripped off by the lines ... perhaps, b/c there were a lot of loops breaking my hair and not my neck.

Since that time, I never ever jumped again with an open ponytail under my helmet.

Watching that girl with false curles brings back painful memories. :o

dudeist skydiver # 3105

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..............
You old timers did do some absolutely insane stuff. .........

Yes, and we have the scars to prove it. We have also attended more funerals than we care to mention.
Much of the gear we used to jump ...... "The museum is over there."

We pass on our experiences in hopes that young jumpers will learn from our mistakes ..... without the scars.

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>It is a safe assumption that the hazards of the costume were at least thought about.

Based on my experience with skydiving so far - no, that's not a safe assumption at all, based on how many people were surprised when I asked them about THEIR preparations for a dangerous jump.

Heavy flag in a deployment bag for a demo:
"Hey, what if you get an entanglement with the lanyard?"
"I got a hook knife; I can cut the whole thing free."
"How much does it weigh?"
"About 60 pounds with weight."
"You'd cut that free over a crowd?"
Blank look.

Snowmobile "demo" (riding a snowmobile in freefall then letting it crash into a field.) Jump goes OK but snowmobile tracks off in the direction of cows after rider deploys. Fortunately misses all the cows, impacts and starts a fire in the scrubgrass. Demo people land. Fire starts growing.
"Hey, anyone bring a fire extinguisher? Or some water or anything?"
Blank look.

So it's worth talking about, so perhaps next time a bit more thought goes into it.

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billvon


Heavy flag in a deployment bag for a demo:
"Hey, what if you get an entanglement with the lanyard?"
"I got a hook knife; I can cut the whole thing free."



But what's the solution I wonder?

Is there anything other than making sure that things don't dangle or fall off when they shouldn't?
Testing and checking that weights don't snap light or poorly tied lines, or that makeshift containers don't blow open in freefall? Recovery parachutes are a whole other issue.

So it seems a bit of a quandry.

If you have something heavy and/or dangerous (eg, pyro) and/or dangly, the options aren't great. If it falls off, or you cut it off, it is dangerous below. If it dangles around or is otherwise causing you problems, it is dangerous to you. If you don't cut it away, and impact the crowd or local neighbourhood with little out, well it isn't all that good a day for anyone either.

But certainly you don't want sloppy, untested rigging to endanger you or allow you to dump the problem on others, literally and figuratively.

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billvon

>It is a safe assumption that the hazards of the costume were at least thought about.

Based on my experience with skydiving so far - no, that's not a safe assumption at all, based on how many people were surprised when I asked them about THEIR preparations for a dangerous jump.

Heavy flag in a deployment bag for a demo:
"Hey, what if you get an entanglement with the lanyard?"
"I got a hook knife; I can cut the whole thing free."
"How much does it weigh?"
"About 60 pounds with weight."
"You'd cut that free over a crowd?"
Blank look.

Snowmobile "demo" (riding a snowmobile in freefall then letting it crash into a field.) Jump goes OK but snowmobile tracks off in the direction of cows after rider deploys. Fortunately misses all the cows, impacts and starts a fire in the scrubgrass. Demo people land. Fire starts growing.
"Hey, anyone bring a fire extinguisher? Or some water or anything?"
Blank look.

So it's worth talking about, so perhaps next time a bit more thought goes into it.



:D

I've seen that blank look quite a bit. Always looks the same.......:|

Then as the cogs click, its followed by.....:o

Then......:$
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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pchapman

***
Heavy flag in a deployment bag for a demo:
"Hey, what if you get an entanglement with the lanyard?"
"I got a hook knife; I can cut the whole thing free."



But what's the solution I wonder?

Is there anything other than making sure that things don't dangle or fall off when they shouldn't?
Testing and checking that weights don't snap light or poorly tied lines, or that makeshift containers don't blow open in freefall? Recovery parachutes are a whole other issue.

So it seems a bit of a quandry.

If you have something heavy and/or dangerous (eg, pyro) and/or dangly, the options aren't great. If it falls off, or you cut it off, it is dangerous below. If it dangles around or is otherwise causing you problems, it is dangerous to you. If you don't cut it away, and impact the crowd or local neighbourhood with little out, well it isn't all that good a day for anyone either.

But certainly you don't want sloppy, untested rigging to endanger you or allow you to dump the problem on others, literally and figuratively.

Often the problem doesn't manifest itself till last minute.com, immediately before takeoff. In that case, the solution is simple....."get that crap off of yourself".

But these sorts of scenarios have been played out lots, and usually there are already well tried and tested solutions out there that are known about.

Often this is where your local "old fart" skydiver can come in handy, he just needs to be asked. If he doesn't know the answer, he'll likely know someone who does.

DZ.com has contributors like 'Twardo who are living gold mines of information at the touch of a keyboard.

There really is no excuse for Mickey Mouse style jump preparation.

The level of ignorance/stupidity out there is a lot higher than many people think....

It would be good to see a photo thread titled "spot the problem".

It could be very educational, and perhaps save someone some grief or pain.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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>But what's the solution I wonder?

A deployment system that contains everything within a firmly attached, snag-free container that does not need a lanyard. A cutaway handle releases the entire assembly (done only after deployment and brake release) paying out the lanyard as it goes. We built one of these later for an even larger flag; used a tandem rig to carry the weight and provide the attachment points.

We considered a further mod where the weight was a big waterbag with a plug attached to the rig through a central line; if the system was ever disconnected the line comes free and the bag drains. However we never had a problem with the original system so it was never added. Between the design of the system and a policy of opening over unpopulated areas, it worked pretty well.

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