Javelin Odyssey Reserve Pilot Chute Question.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey Guys,

I have recently purchased gear and ended up getting a used Javelin Odyssey (2003). I know the Odyssey is a VERY mainstream rig and I'm perfectly comfortable jumping it. Now, I've been getting some flak from some of the guys on my DZ about the rig. The rig is brand new basically (55 jumps). The flak I'm gettign is about how the reserve pilot chute is exposed on the rig as compared to a Mirage or Vector. Honestly, I could care less, but the only reason I'm curious is I was wondering if there is any documented incidents or personal experiences with the pilot chute getting exposed or being deployed on a Javelin.

I can't see this being a major issue at all or the Javelin wouldn't be a mainstream rig. I'm just curious if anyone has any helpful info or personal experiences.

I've also seen mention on the formums about closing the flaps on a Javelin so the pilot chute is not exposed. I'm pretty sure this would violate all safety and TSO recommendations. Please indulge if you have any input.

Thanks so much

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[sid 1]

the flak you're taking is from idiots with their heads up their asses! A well packed Javelin is as safe as any other rig on the market. Some would even tell you that the fewer flaps covering the reserve pilot chute the quicker the reserve deployment (which can come in handy and may account for why I only jump Racer).

It's all in the rigging, a badly packed Vector with the pilot chute fully covered by a bunch'o'flaps is less safe than a well packed Javelin (check out the vector "failing" on skydiving movies.com due to shitty rigging).

I'd just tell the idiots to shut their pie-holes while you jump your rig............

Pete Draper,

Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right?

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Thanks for the reply Sid.

I'm with you man, I don't give a damn what they think. I was just curious why they may get that perspective on it. I know everyone has their opinions on certain rigs and that's great. My first choice was actually an ICON or a Wings, but got a sweet deal on a Jav. At no point in time did I contemplate not jumping due to safety. There are many other Jav's and Odysseys at my DZ as well. The only rig I haven't seen there is an ICON.

I'll take a look at the movie and I also never really thought about that, but less flaps could let that pilot chute out quicker.

Thanks again

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[HeatherB 0]

You're fine. There are idiots out there who worship one brand and constantly talk badly about the others. (often with unwarranted claims)

One potential problem to look out for (not just on a Jav but with others too): If you notice that the pop-top seems to be creeping outwards, forming a gap between the flaps and the pop-top, show it to a rigger.

Just make sure your pop-top is always nice and flush with the rig. A gap is a potential snag point. (but easily fixed by a rigger).

Causes for this can include a closing loop that is too long, or the pilot chute not being seated exactly right. And while the rig may look perfectly fine right after a repack, the pop-top can start "creeping" over time.

If a rigger wants to chime in, feel free. I'm just going off of my stint in the industry and what I've seen.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Chris... Heather and Sid said it well... I'll add... I've got a Javelin, semi-pop-top / same as the Odyssey, and a Talon94, reserve pilot chute under lots-o-flaps... I've got reserve rides on both... both worked 4.0.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Thanks for the input everyone. I've got my answer and it was the same as I had suspected. It was good to fnid out about the pop top creeping. I got a PM and a post about this. That is mostly what I was trying to find out. Issues like that which would cause someone to have an opinion on the javelin like that. My Jav is gonna be with me from jump 25 and beyond!!!

Can't wait until I get my Cypres back from 4 yr and I can jump my rig. Been working on canopy progression just so I can jump my rig. Started on Manta 288's, did 4 jumps on a Silhouette 210, 2 on a Pilot 170, 3 on a Sabre2 150, and I should be able to jump my Spectre 135 as soon as I get it all back together. (My exit weight is 140 lbs) Very excited customer!!

P.S. - Highly recommend the Pilot. Amazingly soft openings. Snivel is a bit long (6-700ish ft). Really fun to fly even considering how lightly loaded it was.

Thanks again
Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[parafredo 0]

I find that you should more be careful to not downsize too much.At 25 jumps with your weight,a lot of DZ owners would not let you jump with a 135.You should get more experience on a 170 and a 150 before getting this Spectre 135.It is my personal opinion but I believe a lot of fellow jumpers think the same way.You should be more concerned about the size of your main for now.Be careful man,

[Sky15 0]

I absolutely agree, I have never had any of my previous AFF students on a canopy that small at 20+ jumps even at 140 exit weight. That is a very fast downsize, and so was the 150 in my opinion. And a few jumps on a canopy is only a few jumps, most likely you haven't jumped the other canopies in different winds. Please don't be in such a hurry, regardless of how great your canopy control has been. Not to burst your bubble I know it's very exiting to get your new gear...but I really felt the need to chime in on this one.

[Cloudi 0]

Oh boy.

I'm assuming (praying) that your instructors expect you to make many, many jumps on the 170 and 150 before they turn you loose on the 135.

If not, there are some really great articles on the PD website that you should take a look at. Here are just a few that pertain to you:

Choosing the Right Canopy (1)
Choosing the Right Canopy (2)
Wing Loading and its Effects

Wingloading isn't the whole story. A small canopy (which 150's & 135's are) is still a small canopy and it will behave like a small canopy, regardless of whether it's a 7 cell or 9 cell, "square," semi-elliptical, or fully elliptical. Those are factors that will certainly influence the performance, but small is small.

For your exit weight and experience level, a 170 is pretty reasonable, maybe even a 150, depending on how well you do on the 170 and depending on your landing area conditions (winds, altitude, etc.). It wasn't as big a deal for you to rush through the larger sizes, but now you need to take your time and learn many things before you downsize again. Among other fantastic articles in the Safety section of this website, Billvon has some great suggestions on the steps to downsizing here:

Downsizing Checklist

Take what I have to say with a grain of salt, of course. I'm no canopy "expert," but I do happen to work for them. I also don't know you and have never seen you fly your current canopy.

Take your time. Progression in skydiving is not a race, unless you want to see how quickly it can be over.

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[riggerrob 558]

Quote

the flak you're taking is from idiots with their heads up their asses! A well packed Javelin is as safe as any other rig on the market.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Agreed!!!
Isn't listening to religious/supersticious skydivers a marvelous waste of time?

• Quote

[packerboy 3]

Javelin is defenitaly one of the top 3 rigs out there in popularity.. that should speak for itself. I personally don't like the location of the main closing loop for ease of packing, but the rest of the rig is slick.

--------------------------------------------------
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey Para, Sky and Cloudi,

I have heard this before and put alot of thought into it. I jump at a very small DZ and everyone has a close eye on me. My exit weight is 140lbs, I weight 115lbs. I am constantly talking to my instructors, rigger, and other DZ people. Everyone says I am doing really well. The day I jumped the 170, it was a bit windy so the landings didn't seem much quicker than the 210. This sunday when I jumped the 150, it was definately much quicker as there was no wind, but I felt as though I had more control and flare than I was used to and felt very comfortable with it. When I brought the toggles to my shoulders and stopped going down and started surfing, I knew when I had to flare. It really just feels natural. If I do not feel comfortable jumping something, I will simply not jump it. I rarely, if ever have to deal with canopy traffic as our biggest plane is 5 passenger and I have just been doing hop/pops to try out the new canopies.

I have been well warned about jumping small canopies and take every bit of advice I get as seriously as possible.

I have also read all the articles about progresion and the effects of W/L at different sizes of canopy. I know that a 210 at 1:1 and a 135 at 1:1 will be completely different and the 135 will be much quicker. My landing area is an airport, so I have no need at this point to try and manouver into a small landing area, If I can't land close, I land in the grass and walk back. No biggie. All I have to worry about is nice easy straight in approaches. Since Day 1, in all 25 jumps I have stood up every landing, just once it was wet out and I slid a bit and put my hands down behind me, yet I still stood up. (I realize the hands things was a bad idea, I've broken my wrist snowboarding doing the exact same thing, but it's a reflex I have to get over)

I promise everyone that I am following my instructors religiously. If they say No, it doesn't happen. I am taking this sport as serious as I can.

I really do appreciate the concern, and trust me, I am only doing what I feel safe.

I am always open to constructive criticism though I always bring thigs like this up to my instructors and ask their opinion, or get their ideas. I'm probably a pain in the ass with all the questions I ask.

Chris

*EDIT:
My container (Jav Ody OJK) I bought should fit a 150 in there and that's what I'll probably do as my rigger has a 150 ghe offered me temporarily. My main reason for going down in canopy size is so I can stop borrowing other people's gear. I hate doing that because I interrupt their jumping. Another thing to note, I am jumping every weekend as to stay current and I am only working on canopy progression, I am not doing anything else on the jumps.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Cloudi 0]

I apologize for the thread drift, but...

It sounds like you have it all figured out. I really hope that you do. Focusing on canopy control makes a huge difference in how quickly you progress your canopy skills and getting input from your instructors is very important. Good for you for taking this seriously. Many more skydivers would still be with us now if they had, too.

One thing to consider, with your cloak of security at a small DZ and straight in approaches, is how you will handle less than ideal landing situations. They can and will happen. Don't you plan to jump at larger, busier DZ's some day? Now is the time to build the fundamental canopy skills you will need when you venture out. Learning from the mistakes most of us make as we progress is far more likely under a bigger canopy.

That's great that you have successfully landed a 150 3 times. That particular canopy also happens to be one of the best flaring canopies in its class.

A conservative canopy pilot can still find themselves in situations that require less conservative measures to land safely. Avoiding those situations is the goal, but they can still happen and knowing how to handle them correctly can mean the difference between walking away or being carried away.

Can you consistently land the 170 or 150 within a few feet of your target? Do you know what to do if someone cuts you off on final or if you have to make a controlled, low turn to land in a tight spot off the airport?

These are some things you need to be learning if you plan to land a smaller canopy safely (or even a larger one!). If you had to cut away on your next jump, found yourself off DZ at an altitude with little time to find a "roomy" landing area, would you feel comfortable landing your 143 reserve?

The more you stack things against yourself with a smaller canopy, the better educated and trained you need to be about how to handle more stressful situations...before they happen. With a smaller, faster, more responsive canopy, you have to plan ahead and be prepared for the unexpected. Faster means less time to think about this stuff in the air, so you better be ready.

What is "convenient" for you or others should never play a role in your decision making with skydiving. Canopy control or otherwise.

Sorry for the lecture. I just hope you truly are thinking about all of these things as you work through your canopy progression. I would like to hear about your skydiving accomplishments, rather than read about you on the other forum.

Use common sense. All those people keeping an eye on you will not be able to fly the canopy for you if you get in a tough spot. Only you, your experience, and training will be able to help you out of a bad situation.

Lecture over. Back to the thread. The Javelin is a great rig.

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[riggerrob 558]

Quote

Hey Guys,

I have recently purchased gear and ended up getting a used Javelin Odyssey (2003). I know the Odyssey is a VERY mainstream rig and I'm perfectly comfortable jumping it. Now, I've been getting some flak from some of the guys on my DZ about the rig. The rig is brand new basically (55 jumps). The flak I'm getting is about how the reserve pilot chute is exposed on the rig as compared to a Mirage or Vector. Honestly, I could care less, but the only reason I'm curious is I was wondering if there is any documented incidents or personal experiences with the pilot chute getting exposed or being deployed on a Javelin.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

... 6 of one and 1/2 a dozen of another.

All rigs have problems. I could tell you about several problems with Vectors and Mirages - including recent service bulletins - but am tired of the whole "rainy day" debate.

• Quote

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Well, for now I have no intentions of travelling to other DZ's. I don't have the need, nor the cash to go running around. Plus, there's not a whole lot of DZ's around here. So as of right now, I will keep my wide open cozy landing area as I work on my canopy progression. As far as traffic goes, I have never been in the air with more than 2 other canopies, so it's usually uncommon. And as in my prevoious post, if I can't land successfully, or need to make a low turn to avoid someone or something, no biggie, I'll just be in the grass. I do know how to do different (safe+low) turns for avoidance or other reasons, but you're right, I don't know everything, but it's being worked on.

I am taking this extremely cautiously and am listening to my instructors the whole way. I really do appreciate your concern and all the advice, and I'm taking it all very seriously. I understand the concequences, and don't want to become a statistic, or become a "told you so" story when I come back to post on here and say I've broken my leg or worse.

(P.S - I need to make more jumps on the 150 anyways, my rig is still 2-3 weeks from ready and I'm trying a 7 cell 150 this weekend to see the difference in glide.)

Again, thank you!

Chris

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."