cdhezel 0 #1 June 27, 2006 AND THE DICKHEAD AWARD IS SHARED THIS MONTH BY THOSE WONDERFUL PEOPLE WHO TRY TO SELL A ZP 135ft or 150ft TO A NEWBIE AS AN IDEAL 1st RIG When I go, I want to pass away in my sleep, just like my dear old Grandmother, NOT screaming like the passengers in the car she was driving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voodew1 0 #2 June 27, 2006 well if you weighed 100lbs without gear its pretty normal for first rigs --- I am to assume you might just weigh a little more than that. The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #3 June 27, 2006 You referring to something you saw in the classifieds? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #4 June 27, 2006 What if the newbie in question weighs 100 lbs? May still not be the right canopy for that person, but it's not all black and white."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #5 June 27, 2006 Why do you yell? Is your caps-lock broken? It could be ideal for a newbie with 50 kgs, but one with 80 kgs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #6 June 27, 2006 QuoteWhat if the newbie in question weighs 100 lbs? May still not be the right canopy for that person, but it's not all black and white. I think if the new jumper weighed 100 pounds the lines on a 135 would still be too short. Of course, I don't know how many jumps or what skill this supposed new jumper has; that's just "what I think". -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #7 June 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhat if the newbie in question weighs 100 lbs? May still not be the right canopy for that person, but it's not all black and white. I think if the new jumper weighed 100 pounds the lines on a 135 would still be too short. Of course, I don't know how many jumps or what skill this supposed new jumper has; that's just "what I think". You are probably right (and, truth be told, since I weigh well over 100 lbs I never needed to explore the "tiny newbie" gear spectrum so I don't know much about it), but a 150 (also mentioned in the post) might be right. I was just pointing out to the OP that it's not always a simple statement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #8 June 27, 2006 I happens every day. Get used to it.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #9 June 28, 2006 Quotewell if you weighed 100lbs without gear its pretty normal for first rigs --- I am to assume you might just weigh a little more than that. A 135? Seriously? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
uponone 0 #10 June 28, 2006 Only 21 posts and well on your way to being a safety unnecessary label removed by slotperfect. Nothing is black and white dude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #11 June 28, 2006 QuoteOnly 21 posts and well on your way to being a safety unnecessary label removed by slotperfect. . Nothing is black and white dude. Out of curiosity, would you put a newbie under a 135? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fool 0 #12 June 28, 2006 My first bought canopy was a spectre 135... I don't think I'd really recommend it for everyone, or anyone heavier than I am, but I had no issues with it. S.E.X. party #1 "Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "f*#k, what a ride". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
atsaubrey 0 #13 June 28, 2006 to me for jumping im such an idiot"GOT LEAD?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #14 June 28, 2006 Quotebut I had no issues with it. And do you think that was due to skill or luck?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWPoul 1 #15 June 28, 2006 H-mm: Two girls at my home DZ (both weight less than 50 kg) as their first canopy (at ~70 jumps total including ~60 on a rounds, few on classic accuracy canopy and few on 160ish Triathlon) bought Sabre 120... Both always blames it as too big... When I heard that they want to buy a 120 I (after reading this forums) sad "hell no! the wingloading itself doesn't mean that this size is adequate! the lines shorter and responces much quicker..." but after they start to jump thier canopies I had to shut up The 120 didn't look as a small canopy for them at all...it's looks like it too big for them Few jumps later one girl change to Saffire2 99, Another just ordered 99 Sf2... P.S. All above IS NOT advise for downsize and I DON'T recommend to anyone take canopy <150Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #16 June 28, 2006 QuoteOnly 21 posts and well on your way to being a safety unnecessary label removed by slotperfect. Nothing is black and white dude. Well, one thing is black and white...that someone who thinks the number of posts means anything is calling down on someone who has questions about safety issues. Are there exceptions to jump numbers vs canopy size? Yes. As a general rule? I would argue against such a small canopy until sufficient piloting skills are achieved on something larger but appropriate. For every pilot there is a range of canopy sizes that are appropriate and it makes sense to me to learn piloting skills starting at the larger end of the range rather than the smaller end. FWIWMy reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #17 June 28, 2006 I knew a girl who weighed 100lbs. She jumped mantas and couldn't land the thing worth shit. She was convinced that it was the canopy(it was too big) and got herself a Sabre 150. She couldn't land the thing worth shit. She was convinced it was the canopy(it was too big) and got herself a sabre 135. She couldn't land the thing worth shit. To make a long story short, she ended up broken on a runway with a severly shattered leg and a nice new stiletto 107 fluttering next to her (i guess it was too big). The moral of the story. 1.) People progress at different speeds, regardless of weight. 2.) wing loading is only relevent if you look at the loading of the previous parachute they were jumping (it's all relative this girl went from a 290 to a 107 eliptical within a couple hundred jumps). 3.) with the exception of the odd anecdote here and there of the newbie who got a 135 as a first canopy and flew it ok, it is unsafe for the majority of newbies to get that size as a first canopy off student status. Advetising it as such is irresponsible and has a high likelyhood of either hurting the jumper or disappointing them when thier DZO tells them "aw, hell no!" Then it's the DZO that looks bad (I know, oh god I know). And all so that some dude can sell his gear and make a couple bucks.I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
klingeme 0 #18 June 28, 2006 I bought my first rig at about 100 jumps and when I did I bought a brand new Spectre 135. Mark Klingelhoefer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #19 June 28, 2006 Like I said, I don't know a damn thing about being in the market for "tiny people" gear... but I've certainly read/heard enough to know that a 135 is probably inappropriate for most if not all new jumpers. But the OP did mention a 150 as well, which MIGHT be appropriate for some new jumpers, I don't really know. But everyone who's responded here has focused in on the 135... Regardless, yeah, I agree that it's a bit "dickheadish" to advertise a canopy that small as "perfect newbie gear." Then again, I would also hope that a newbie buying gear would not buy it based on what some classified ad on dropzone.com said (or ebay, or some flyer on the dropzone's bulletin board or whereever the seller is listing their item). Just like I wouldn't blindly trust an ad that said "gear is in perfect condition" (I'd have a trusted rigger look at it) I would hope that any jumper, no matter HOW new, would know better than to trust a random ad that said "This is perfect for you." You *have* to do enough research on your own to know what you're looking for and not be willing to compromise safety in the name of convenience (I know at least a few times I've read things like "Well, I couldn't find a 190 so I just bought a 170" or "Well, the container I found could only fit a 150 reserve, even though I wanted to get a 176, so I just started looking for a 150.") You're spending a lot of money on a lifesaving device. Not that I'd wish bad things on people, but man, some level of common sense ought to be required for these purchases, and in the case of a brand-new jumper, common sense = realizing you don't know enough to know what to buy and finding trusted resources. I'll step down off my soapbox now... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris-Ottawa 0 #20 June 28, 2006 Hey, I am completely on the side of safety, but wanted to pipe in a bit here. I just bought beginner gear from dz.com, haven't even recieved it yet. I weigh 115lbs and spoke with my DZO, rigger, and instructors before making this purchase. I would have never bought this unless they OK'd it. Given that info, I originally picked out a Sabre 170 and we all agreed that it would not last me long. I've stood every single landing since day 1, minus my tandem. My instructors said I will be fine under a 135, with a good progression. Currently I have 20 jumps, and they said as long as I'm landing the 170's and 150's Ok, then I should be able to jump the 135 in about 40 jumps. If I do not feel comfortable at that time...I won't jump it. My container I bought will also fit a 150, so if it came down to it, I would just sell the 135. I did not buy an elliptical either, I'm smart enough to avoid that. But I put an ad in the classifieds looking for gear and had more than a few try to sell me Stiletto 135 and 120's. Not interested, I imagine I'll be under my 135 for a long time to come. So in the end, I don't think a 135 is a newbie canopy. I think it is a canopy that is sized for a small person, capable of handling it and not trying to swoop or be stupid. I think the people around him/her should be the ones that can decide if a 135 is right. That's my 2 cents since I'm in that exact scenario Chris"When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cdhezel 0 #21 June 28, 2006 There is a responsibility within the community that is unequalled by almost any other sport. If you convince someone to buy an undersized rig, just to make a sale. Well the award is for you. Of course there are lightwieghts and naturals that will from the start have no issues with a small rig, the event that triggerd this award was an un-necessary accident where a fresh off the AFF course beginner was negotiating buying a Sabre 150, he trial jumped it at the insistance of the seller. Several people in the dropzone tried to talk him out of it, but were labled as underestimating cynics. Crash and burn. Luckily he got off with a light to moderate concussion and a busted up self confidence. By the way, I am told the seller tried to insist he then buy the rig as he had ditied it.... so don't y'all think the seller is getting off lightly with the DH lable, I would personally call him something else...... Blues Mrrs et MmesWhen I go, I want to pass away in my sleep, just like my dear old Grandmother, NOT screaming like the passengers in the car she was driving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris-Ottawa 0 #22 June 28, 2006 Hello, There is some new light that I was unaware of. Someone fresh off PFF after jumping Manta's, not a chance in hell I'd recommend, nor would anyone else recommend a 135. I didn't know that this thread was regarding an incident. There is alot of responsibility and it's not all the student's fault. The student made a big mistake, but I can attest, it's not "ALL" his/her fault. I know I was very inquisitive and found things out that I wouldn't have if I did not ask. So the fact that the student may have been naive can disclude him from some blame. That being said, when he was told by other people on the DZ not to jump it, that puts "ALL" the blame back on him. The person selling the gear, should have some common sense. Obviously like CD said, responsibility is between all of us to withold. Why would you willingly sell someone gear to make a sale, knowing that it is not entirely safe for them. You are only hurting the sport by doing that. Then you'll be the first one to bitch when some new regulation comes out restricting parachute sizes or something. Just imagine, no more than .75 Wing Loading until you have your D license. Would that ever go over well!!! haha. Anyways, enough of me ranting. It's common sense, save the sport so everyone can enjoy it. Chris"When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #23 June 28, 2006 QuoteSeveral people in the dropzone tried to talk him out of it, but were labled as underestimating cynics. Who gave them this label? The person who bought the canopy? A jumper who is in over his head will ALWAYS be able to find someone to encourage his stupidity. "Shop around" long enough and you'll find someone to give you the answer you want to hear. The fact that several other people tried to talk him out of indicates that he was doing just that. Yeah, the seller was a dumbass. But it sounds to me like the buyer would have moved on to another seller. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ugali 0 #24 June 28, 2006 On jump No. 34 I started jumping a 150 spectre. No regrets so far, but I am a light bugger (65kgs) so landings are not that fast. However, I wouldn't touch anything smaller. Or eliptical. Thats a guaranteed screw up. Tom, Tom Tom, Tommy, Tom Love Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #25 June 28, 2006 Quote....this award was an un-necessary accident where a fresh off the AFF course beginner was negotiating buying a Sabre 150, he trial jumped it at the insistance of the seller. Several people in the dropzone tried to talk him out of it, but were labled as underestimating cynics. .... One question....where the hell was the S&TA in all this? Well, two questions...AND the DZO? My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
