Cloud Rules

[Yung_Seezy 0]

I know this is a newb question but im trying to fill out my proficiency cardd and dont know the cloud clearance rules. I tried reading them in the sim but dont really understand it so can someone please explain it in a simpler manner?

[GAjumper84 0]

Two sets of rules, one for above 10k, the other below 10k.

You are required to get out at least 1000ft above the cloud deck or 1000ft below the cloud deck. So no getting out in the middle of clouds.

There must be 5 mile visibility in the clear airspace. This is something that you can get from an aviation weather report. I am yet to come across a day that I would want to jump with less than 5 mile visibility. Usually means heavy fog or storms when it is less than that.

And finally you must be at least one mile in any direction from a cloud that you would potentially pass through. Meaning on a perfect jump run with only one group, the rule is that you must be jumping through a two mile wide hole.

Below 10k the rules change to 1000 ft above, 500 ft below

3 miles visibility

2000ft away from any cloud that you would pass through. So in this case you could jump a hole just a little less than a mile across.

Hope that helps. If you have more questions, just specify what part you don't get and I'm sure we can help.

[Nicknero1405 0]

Well, in that case we broke some rules then. Because during my second Relative Instructional jump with my instructor last week, we had to exit right inside the cloud layer. And not only that, it was a cloud that had rain/hail in it which really hurts on your face if you fall through it with 200km/h. :(

See here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQjxZfF7zQA

This was the last jump of the day anyway, because after this the weather became bad and it started to rain and such.

[rastapara 0]

Seeing you jump out of a plane that says Teuge on the bottom I assume that you are looking for the dutch rules. That was some thick industrial haze that day

Quickly skimming the Dutch bsr's (http://www.parachute.nl/fileadmin/knvvlpa_upload/pdf/BVR_2014.pdf) I* cant find anything about cloud cover, however, you are jumping under dutch law "Regeling valschermspringen 2010" (http://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0027968/geldigheidsdatum_30-07-2015) that states you can only jump when you meet VFR (visual flight rules) conditions (you can easily read what the means here https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_flight_rules **)

* Im lacking coffee atm
** to lazy to google the exact wording/law, but wikipedia gives you a general idea

Bonus tip: be more carefull jumping through "thick industrial haze" when jumping a dz surrounded by a shitload of trees, water, or other stuff that you dont want to land on/in

Parachute gear garage sale at :http://www.usedparachutes.eu

[Yorick 0]

Nicknero1405

we had to exit right inside the cloud layer.

Eeehhh ... No. You do not *have* to jump. It's perfectly fine to go around and be dropped trough a hole OR get out below the clouds OR ride the plane down.

"The 'perfect' parachute jump was thought to be one where the opening shock and touchdown were simultaneous" -Lyle Cameron, ~1965
---
Falling-With-Style.com

[keithbar 1]

Hey Nick. Is the rig you are jumping in that video a talon? Looks like the twin to my rig.

i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .

[Nicknero1405 0]

Yes it is. A Talon T7. Good eye.
It is a second hand rig though. Used to have a Raven 2 in it. Now it has a Triathlon 210 in it with the option to downsize to 190 when I'm above 100 jumps.

This has nothing to do with the thread though, so I'll stop derailing it any further. You can always PM me if you want to continue this conversation. ^^

[Tela 0]

The way it was explained to me was that above 10k you have jets and turbine aircraft that fly significantly faster than piston aircraft. Hence, you need to be able to see further to really ensure clear skies and no traffic. Below 10k planes are generally slower, so up high 5 miles. Think about it like crossing a street in your neighborhood vs crossing a highway. I don't know Dutch specific rules, but the general principals still apply.

"The lizards were a race of people practically extinct from doing things smart people don't do."

[JohnMitchell 16]

Tela

The way it was explained to me was that above 10k you have jets and turbine aircraft that fly significantly faster than piston aircraft.
Below 10k planes are generally slower, so up high 5 miles.

Actually there is an FAA speed limit for ALL aircraft, jet, turbo, piston, of 250 knots indicated airspeed (KIAS) below 10,000. Above 10K, yes, they may go as fast as they want (subsonic, of course.)

There are a few operators that have waivers to this rule, esp. for air shows, but it's not very common.

[sheenMatthews 0]

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[JohnMitchell 16]

Yung_Seezy

I know this is a newb question but im trying to fill out my proficiency cardd and dont know the cloud clearance rules. I tried reading them in the sim but dont really understand it so can someone please explain it in a simpler manner?

A lot of people have trouble visualizing what the rules are. I like to sketch them out on paper. Draw a low cloud, draw a high cloud, and sketch in the required clearances.

[Yung_Seezy 0]

Thanks everyone! I understood it from the explanations and just got my A yesterday!

[mathrick 2]

It's also helpful to understand why the rules are there. Some of it comes from simply jumping after you're cleared for solo and having to decide for yourself "do I feel comfortable doing this?". Suddenly cloud jumps sound much less fun :). The other part is history -- the USPA for example instituted the cloud jumping ban after a huge disaster in the '60s, where 16 out of 18 people on a load drowned.

And remember that you never have to jump. Sometimes the best thing to do as a skydiver is not to jump. Whilst I've never been in a situation where I had to ride down, I've been less than 50m from aborting (we were doing a reconnaissance jump on a low ceiling day, and I said I wouldn't jump if the ceiling weren't at least 850m. I exited at 875m), and also refused to exit after green light and waited 10-15s until we flew over less thick clouds. It all comes down to whether you will make it down safely. If you have any doubts that you will, then don't jump (that also means that depending on your jump type, the same clouds might be perfectly fine or a no go).

"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

[Yung_Seezy 0]

I know i had to fall through a cloud during AFF 4 and it scared the shit out of me to the point where i didnt pull. I'm glad it happened though because after I was cleared for solo and had to fall through one again i was calm and knew it wasnt a big deal.

[Bosque 0]

Nicknero1405

Well, in that case we broke some rules then. Because during my second Relative Instructional jump with my instructor last week, we had to exit right inside the cloud layer. And not only that, it was a cloud that had rain/hail in it which really hurts on your face if you fall through it with 200km/h. :(

See here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQjxZfF7zQA

This was the last jump of the day anyway, because after this the weather became bad and it started to rain and such.

Be careful about posting videos of you jumping in industrial haze. Beyond the numerous reasons not to do it for safety purposes (which people either care about or they don't), at least in the US the FAA has been known to investigate when they are directed to blatant video evidence of breaking the rules. So even if you dont care about your own safety, you could get your pilot grounded and your DZ shut down.

Of course, the best answer is to just not do it.

[JohnMitchell 16]

Bosque

in the US the FAA has been known to investigate when they are directed to blatant video evidence of breaking the rules. So even if you dont care about your own safety, you could get your pilot grounded and your DZ shut down.

Of course, the best answer is to just not do it.

A-fucking-men

Don't be posting stupid $hit on social media.

[cdcollura 4]

Good day all,

JohnMitchell

***I know this is a newb question but im trying to fill out my proficiency cardd and dont know the cloud clearance rules. I tried reading them in the sim but dont really understand it so can someone please explain it in a simpler manner?

A lot of people have trouble visualizing what the rules are. I like to sketch them out on paper. Draw a low cloud, draw a high cloud, and sketch in the required clearances.
Back in the late 2000's I was in an L-39 jet and we were doing 420 KNOTS about 20 feet above a canal ... Does that count with the 250 limit? Isn't under 500 feet class G?

Yeah, but we dove from 15,000 feet to the 20 foot altitude in 20 seconds. Shhhhhh!

Fly High ... Don't "Get High"!

[JohnMitchell 16]

cdcollura

Back in the late 2000's I was in an L-39 jet and we were doing 420 KNOTS about 20 feet above a canal ... Does that count with the 250 limit? Isn't under 500 feet class G?

Yeah, but we dove from 15,000 feet to the 20 foot altitude in 20 seconds. Shhhhhh!

I'd like to say I've never busted an FAR. . .
I'd like to say it but I can't.

I double checked the FARs and the speed limit is below 10,000' MSL. It makes no exception for Class G airspace that I can find. BTW, Class G is usually 1200 agl and lower. Some areas are 700 agl and lower.

Exceptions are waivers for airshows, military training routes, restricted areas and, I believe, MOAs. Also, aircraft that need faster than 250 KIAS below 10K for safety are allowed to do that. I don't know if they issue waivers for that or if it's just approved automatically.

[DiverMike 5]

I think it is covered automatically in 91.117.d

(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

Having said that, I don't know of any aircraft where the safe KIAS is above 250 knots.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[JohnMitchell 16]

DiverMike

I think it is covered automatically in 91.117.d

(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

Having said that, I don't know of any aircraft where the safe KIAS is above 250 knots.

When Delta had a lot of Pacific Rim routes out of PDX years ago, the heavily loaded MD-11s were waivered to exceed 250 KIAS. I've heard the T-38 has a similar exemption.