mjosparky 3 #76 June 26, 2006 Quotebecuase there is a chance of bag lock. There is a chance of a bag lock on any deployment involving a deployment bag. I have seen a bag lock on a static line direct bag deployment .My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #77 June 26, 2006 Quotewhat pushes the flaps open and releases the D-bag on a main horseshoe malfunction with a hand deployed pilot-chute? The answer is instability and omnidirectional nature of the wind hitting an unstable jumper. Another cause is the flexing of the pack when a jumper is flailing through the air (bent at the hips.) Moving from the obviously student example above to more experienced jumpers, it is the various manouevers a jumper performs on a skydive when his pin has popped. It's the change in airflow over the back that happens when jumpers track, backslide and turn. It is the flexing of the pack as they do the same manouvers. The point posed, however, assumed a stable body position with stable belly to earth activation and the RPC not clearing the burble. According to the manual, the secondary PC is placed under the #1 top flap. That means that the secondary PC will only come out if the jumper has an omnidirectional wind flow or excessive flexing. I've seen jumpers roll into burbled PCs and the result is a potental horseshoe. If you have a potential horseshoe then a secondary maybe useful. ... well you asked. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darnknit 0 #78 June 26, 2006 QuoteAccording to the manual, the secondary PC is placed under the #1 top flap. That means that the secondary PC will only come out if the jumper has an omnidirectional wind flow or excessive flexing. i would think the bridle would create enough drag to release the secondary PC. even if the bridle was in the jumpers burble. i actually have video of how dynamic a bridle cought in a jumpers burble can be. pulling is cool. keep it in the skin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shaiziel 0 #79 June 27, 2006 QuoteQuotei just thought if you have 2 PC's or these pockets the freebag is going to rocket off your back. 2 PC's - twice as fast to line stretch? If you have 2 PC’s on the same bridle, the first one to catch air will have to pull the other one along. So it might be that 2 PC’s will make deployment slower. See attachment I was trying to visualize this in my head and I think there's a problem with your situation. In a normal deployment, the 1st PC will catch wind first and thus begin pulling the bridle out. As the 2nd PC becomes exposed to the relative wind away from the diver's burble, it will begin adding resistance and as a result ASSIST the first PC in pulling the pack out, even if it never opens. But regardless, as soon as the 2nd PC deploys, it just isn't conceivable for it to deploy in a manner that would cause it to fight the 1st PC (playing tug of war with the bridle between the two). It doesn't even matter if the 2nd PC has more resistance than the first PC due to sizing/positioning differences. The 2 will react the the resistance encountered when falling through the relative wind in the same way: by deploying in a way that will position them right side up thus creating maximum drag and resistance thus, creating MORE pull on the bridle. There is a caveat to this. If you are falling slower than the 1st PC launches vertically, it could be slowed down by the 2nd PC. Let me try to simplify it. The first PC is not going to actually pull the 2nd PC UP through the relative wind faster than the relative wind if you are in freefall. As a result, the 2nd PC will deploy just like the first PC and ASSIST in pulling the pack out. There will never be a tug of war because there will always be more relative wind coming from the direction of free fall. Even if the 2nd PC deployed before the 1st, it would more likely bump the 1st PC out of the burble and things would continue as normal. Worst that could happen is the bridle may get tangled between the two PC's and this isn't really a problem so long as it doesn't collapse both PC's which is inconceivable in 98% of situations. It will still result on 2 PC's exerting pull force on the pack. Your attachment makes it seem like the 2nd PC would become inverted as it is pulled out by the 1st PC. I simply cannot see that happening. As soon as that 2nd PC encounters the relative wind, it's going to move into a position which will cause it to deploy, thus do nothing but help pull the pack out of the container. I think caspar had the right idea. The more shit you throw behind you the more pull force is gonna be on the bridle. The thing is, I could see why when drawing your illustration, you would think it made sense. You just have to remember (obviously) that both PC's are going to be FALLING through the relative wind. At no point would any PC actually encounter wind that countered the relative wind equally.---------------------------------------- 6.8% - Almost there! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #80 June 27, 2006 Quotequestion for you? why will you like to make things more complicated? simple things work much more better. SO you won't pack the Skyhook either? Or Racers?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #81 June 27, 2006 You could very well be right. I have not been involved in any test programs that would substantiate either view.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pablito 0 #82 June 27, 2006 Well I don't pack racers by choice. The skyhook is simple, that is the beauty of it i like packing it. Cielos Azules Pablito "If you don't overcome your fears they will overcome you first" Shady Monkey/6Segundos Rodriguez/AKA Pablito Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #83 June 27, 2006 Quotei would think the bridle would create enough drag to release the secondary PC. even if the bridle was in the jumpers burble. i actually have video of how dynamic a bridle cought in a jumpers burble can be. Point taken. A reserve hesitation, however, is quite different from a loose main bridle in freefall that gets worse as the jumper moves performs his/her jump.I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #84 June 27, 2006 QuoteThe skyhook is simple, that is the beauty of it i like packing it. The skyhook adds one more layer of complexity to repacking a reserve. If you lose sight of that you are on your way down a slippery slope. That’s why this was issued: PSB#20031203 Skyhook RSLMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pablito 0 #85 June 27, 2006 Well as you say it does, but the concept of it is simple. The service bulletin was done because if the skyhook is not properly install on the bridle they you can't continue your packjob. Life is good brother. If you want to can try overanalyses everything and then you will never get anywhere. The important thing is to understand what you are doing. "If you don't overcome your fears they will overcome you first" Shady Monkey/6Segundos Rodriguez/AKA Pablito Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #86 June 27, 2006 QuoteIf you want to can try overanalyses everything and then you will never get anywhere. The important thing is to understand what you are doing. And tell me how do you reach understanding if you fail to analyze? If your boss didn’t analyze things there would not be a skyhook.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #87 June 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteThe skyhook is simple, that is the beauty of it i like packing it. The skyhook adds one more layer of complexity to repacking a reserve. If you lose sight of that you are on your way down a slippery slope. That’s why this was issued: PSB#20031203 Skyhook RSL Bingo.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #88 June 28, 2006 QuoteWell as you say it does, but the concept of it is simple. As simple as the Catapult? QuoteIf you want to can try overanalyses everything and then you will never get anywhere. The important thing is to understand what you are doing. I just think your argument of not wanting to pack the Catapult because it's too complex doesn't hold water. If you want to say you won't pack the Catapult because you don't like it than that's fine, but say that.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #89 June 28, 2006 QuoteWith your main container (and riser covers) closed, it can easily take over 15 lbs. of pull to remove your reserve bag from the container. It takes a pilot chute of about 13" finished diameter to do that. Pockets on the bridle won't generate nearly that much drag. But the most important thing to consider, is that the second pilot chute can't "tell" the difference between a reserve horse shoe (which is very rare) and a reserve pilot chute hesitation (which is very common). Ask yourself this simple question: "Do you really want your reserve bag pulled out of the container by the secondary pilot chute while your main pilot chute is hesitating right above?" Sounds like a recipe for an entanglement between the heavy, spring loaded primary pilot chute, and your reserve lines to me. It seems like a dilema, solving this problem is a matter of ensuring that the bridle length between pilot chutes is less that the length between the secondary pilot chute and freebag, but you need that distance between pilots to be long to facilitate extraction while the secondary pilot is pulling on the free bag end of the horseshoe (which also eats up some of that bridle length). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #90 June 28, 2006 QuoteQuotei just thought if you have 2 PC's or these pockets the freebag is going to rocket off your back. 2 PC's - twice as fast to line stretch? If you have 2 PC’s on the same bridle, the first one to catch air will have to pull the other one along. So it might be that 2 PC’s will make deployment slower. See attachment I don't think so when you consider the relative motion of the air, not just the relative motion of the pilot chutes. P.S. I mean at least w.r.t. pulling against an inflated chute (it wouldn't inflate like that), it'd still potentially have to pull against mass of pilot etc. in the hesitation scenario mentioned by Bill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #91 June 28, 2006 QuoteI don't think so when you consider the relative motion of the air, not just the relative motion of the pilot chutes. See post #81.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pablito 0 #92 June 28, 2006 the topic of the post is about horshoe mal on reserve, there were several topics discuss. This is not about my believes or yours. You can think what ever you want Mjorsparky "If you don't overcome your fears they will overcome you first" Shady Monkey/6Segundos Rodriguez/AKA Pablito Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pablito 0 #93 June 28, 2006 having 2 pilot chutes, one that could get in between your line groups and give you a bag lock? well that really sucks. I wish that that never happens to anyone. "If you don't overcome your fears they will overcome you first" Shady Monkey/6Segundos Rodriguez/AKA Pablito Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #94 June 28, 2006 Not only have we yet to see that in the real world, but I've seen video from the drop tests on the Reflex/Catapult system and didn't see it there. I think the scenario as described is less likely than you're making it out to be.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #95 June 28, 2006 QuoteThis is not about my believes or yours. Then maybe you should not post your beliefs. QuoteWell I don't pack racers by choice. The skyhook is simple, that is the beauty of it i like packing it. My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #96 June 28, 2006 We seem to have a situation here where we have suposition vs testing. A theory comes and the testing doesn't support the theory. Either we have a problem with the testing or the theory is false. If it's a problem with the testing, let us know what the problem is or design a better test. Ignoring the tests and banking on an unsubstantiated claim is not a proper way to progress and it doesn't matter if you are right or not. Fact always trumps theory. Once again, I'm not sold on the catapult yet and maybe there would be problems if you used one. But saying there is a problem simply just isn't enough.I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pablito 0 #97 June 28, 2006 and you should do the same then "If you don't overcome your fears they will overcome you first" Shady Monkey/6Segundos Rodriguez/AKA Pablito Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #98 June 28, 2006 QuoteA theory comes and the testing doesn't support the theory. Either we have a problem with the testing or the theory is false. To add to that, let's remember that saying "the testing doesn't support the theory" may just mean either that "it doesn't tell us anything either way" We may not have the facts yet to trump theory. I'm not taking sides, but the answer may indeed be that the testing is the problem. Not that the testing is done poorly, just that one can't do enough of it. It's a common problem in skydiving, trying to evaluate the probability of unlikely events. One can do a hundred expensive test drops and have a good chance not to discover something bad that happens only once in 1000 times. (Sometimes the test can be designed to try to make the problem show up more often.) While it is good to know the positive outcome of all of Mick's tests, some of us may still be undecided about how strong that evidence is in evaluating Bill's theory one way or the other. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #99 June 28, 2006 Quoteand you should do the same then Ya know as an employee of RWS, you are a piss poor ambassador for them. You should either take a public relations/ marketing course and continue to shill for them or change your screen name and profile. I'm sure english is a second language for you and it may be difficult for you to articulate your position at times, that's OK but your public condemnation of other people and their ideas/ beliefs does not exactly shine a positive light on RWS and it's employees. Think about that next time you give your opinion under the RWS flag. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pablito 0 #100 June 28, 2006 Pablito is Pablito, I happen to work for RWS, and I'm not representing RWS on this discusion, I never said as an RWS employee I think bla bla bla. THe flag that I waved was the Pablito flag not the RWS one. If there is something in concern with RWS the right person will do the post. Mick Have a great day. and look at my signature. doesn't say RWS employee on it. "If you don't overcome your fears they will overcome you first" Shady Monkey/6Segundos Rodriguez/AKA Pablito Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
