horshoe mal on a reserve

[riggermick 6]

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and how does this affect a normal reserve deployment?

if you have two PC's do you have to reduce the size of the normal one? or just add this extra PC and get much faster openings?


edit : if the PC is attached at the reserve bridle with none of its own bridle i guess that snagging or additional wrapping of the reserve bridle isnt going to happen?

cheers for all the replies. this is a great way to learn about the kit and its limitations / strengths and of all the other options and possibilities out there,

We drop tested the Reflex with and without the Catapult, there were no noticable differences in opening times. The primary pilot chute is 31" in diameter when cut and the Catapult is 28" when cut. The Catapult is connected 1/3 rd the of the way up the bridle from the free bag (4'6") the overall length of the bridle is 16'. It is held in place by a small loop of bridle material so that the base of the Catapult is flush with the bridle. I hope this helps your understanding of how it is configured.

Mick.

[apoil 0]

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If I remember right the Talon bridal is about 15 feet long.

I don't know why so many folks are trying to marry components of their rig.

Maybe congress is right. Maybe gay marriage has opened the door to this kind of perversion.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi apoil,

If you are going to take on spell checking on this site, you are in for a lot of work.

I know I do my share, of poor spelling/typing that is.

Jerry

[mjosparky 3]

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If I remember right the Talon bridal bridle is about 15 feet long.

I don't know why so many folks are trying to marry components of their rig.

Maybe congress is right. Maybe gay marriage has opened the door to this kind of perversion.

Opps!

Did not mean to shake your belief in matrimonial bliss.

There I fixed it just for you.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[diablopilot 2]

Why would you get faster openings?

Once the freebag is off the canopy, it opens normaly like any other reserve deployment.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[caspar 0]

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Why would you get faster openings?

Once the freebag is off the canopy, it opens normaly like any other reserve deployment.

i just thought if you have 2 PC's or these pockets the freebag is going to rocket off your back. 2 PC's - twice as fast to line stretch?? i was just wondering and trying to see holes in the idea of having this modification.

i say its a hole in the idea because i thought that if it was beneficial to have the freebag extracted at this speed then wouldnt it be standard already?

not a very concise line of thought but its all i could think of with my vast amount of knowledge about the gear we use

so, anyone out there with any negative points about having this on your reserve bridle? any "possible" nasty outcomes with having ths setup?

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[diablopilot 2]

i just thought if you have 2 PC's or these pockets the freebag is going to rocket off your back. 2 PC's - twice as fast to line stretch?? ***

Sure, it might get to line stretch faster. But once the free bag is off the opening is the same. Getting to linestretch faster isn't gonna change the opening.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mjosparky 3]

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i just thought if you have 2 PC's or these pockets the freebag is going to rocket off your back. 2 PC's - twice as fast to line stretch?

If you have 2 PC’s on the same bridle, the first one to catch air will have to pull the other one along. So it might be that 2 PC’s will make deployment slower.

See attachment

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[caspar 0]

i wrote a long reply but something about a fatal error meant it didnt get posted so im just going to explain the picture i just drew.

1) normal reserve deployment
2) attachment of secondary pilot chute. red - normal attachment point, green - reserve bridle with slack between two attachment points to allow the PC to fully inflate. yellow - secondary attachment point.
3) deployment with a horshoe mal.

i guess the second PC would have to designed slightly differently because of the second attachment point OR there could be "string, bridle, etc" between half way up PC and the reserve bridle.

this would mean that the normal deployment would be unaffected (pretty much) as the secondary PC would be deflated.

the only thing i could see wrong with this would be that the secondary point could cause the 2nd PC to deform and not inflate properly?


dont shout me down too much if im completely wrong here. i type as i think, this thread is FUN

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[rigger_john 0]

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If I remember right the Talon bridal is about 15 feet long.

Eye halve a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.

Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.

As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong.

Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew

_________________________________________

Nullius in Verba

• Quote

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi caspar,

First, do not stop pondering new things/ideas. As has been mentioned, this is how new things get developed.

Second, IMO your system is simply too complicated when not necessary (not a complaint against you, just my thoughts). I'm a 'keep it simple' kind of guy; i.e., the Catapult.

Again, keep that mind going.

Jerry

[kenneth21441 0]

My Mt1 has these pockets on the reserve bridle and if need think they will work as long as they are correctly stowed and ready for use. But ehn sure dont want to try it for actual use the opening will be a mother,.

Kenneth Potter
FAA Senior Parachute Rigger
Tactical Delivery Instructor (Jeddah, KSA)
FFL Gunsmith

[mjosparky 3]

Caspar.

You must keep in mind that what I posted about a second PC on the same bridle is just my opinion and not the final say it what is right or wrong.

As for your drawing, I will have to agree with Jerry, that the idea is a little to complicated. That does not mean it will not work, only some comprehensive testing would show that.

The important thing is that you are thinking and this makes you learn how you gear functions. Just because I don’t think your idea is worth pursuing does not mean that it won’t be the next leap forward in safety. In either case please continue to think of things in a different light then the status quo. It is the fresh look that often sees the problem or can visualize a better way. .

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mjosparky 3]

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My Mt1 has these pockets on the reserve bridle and if need think they will work as long as they are correctly stowed and ready for use. But ehn sure dont want to try it for actual use the opening will be a mother,.

With either the MT-1X or the MT-1S canopy as a reserve the assist pockets have no chance at all of lifting the weight of the baged canopy out of the pack tray.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billbooth 10]

With your main container (and riser covers) closed, it can easily take over 15 lbs. of pull to remove your reserve bag from the container. It takes a pilot chute of about 13" finished diameter to do that. Pockets on the bridle won't generate nearly that much drag. But the most important thing to consider, is that the second pilot chute can't "tell" the difference between a reserve horse shoe (which is very rare) and a reserve pilot chute hesitation (which is very common). Ask yourself this simple question: "Do you really want your reserve bag pulled out of the container by the secondary pilot chute while your main pilot chute is hesitating right above?" Sounds like a recipe for an entanglement between the heavy, spring loaded primary pilot chute, and your reserve lines to me.

[teason 0]

um, ok.....

If the jumper has a pilotchute hesitation, that means it is trapped in the burble on the back, ergo, a stable body position. That means a situation where the second pilotchute, bridle and bag are also in the burble, so that arguement is sketchy at best.

Now a reserve pilotchute entangled with a part of your body would imply a unstable body position and therefore a situation where the burble is not on the back and where the catapult could come in handy.

I'm not sold on the catapult but your arguement need either more work or more explanation.

Ask yourself a simple question, how is a secondary pilot chute going to sneak out of a burble if the spring loaded primary can't do it?

Please tellme if I'm missing something.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[caspar 0]

i just find this thread really fun trying to work out the way i think it would be best done. by learning how its a crap idea, as you guys have said, i learn more about how the gear works. at work again, my internet went down at home but i did have about 10 diagrams and explanations drawn up for my "next level" of complexity.

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[caspar 0]

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With your main container (and riser covers) closed, it can easily take over 15 lbs. of pull to remove your reserve bag from the container. It takes a pilot chute of about 13" finished diameter to do that. Pockets on the bridle won't generate nearly that much drag. But the most important thing to consider, is that the second pilot chute can't "tell" the difference between a reserve horse shoe (which is very rare) and a reserve pilot chute hesitation (which is very common). Ask yourself this simple question: "Do you really want your reserve bag pulled out of the container by the secondary pilot chute while your main pilot chute is hesitating right above?" Sounds like a recipe for an entanglement between the heavy, spring loaded primary pilot chute, and your reserve lines to me.

i understand your point but then this leads me back to my original idea where you have pockets all the way up the bridle. not the massive ones in the pictures of ones actually made but lots of little cells running the full length of the bridle. i would of thought that if you have them running both sides then theres got to be enough drag there and not cock up any deployment. maybe one day when i have some money and experience i'll make it and try and let you all know what happens. im tempted to patent the idea just to kill some time over the summer and enertain a little hobby to keep me busy (i know its a crap idea really but i'm having so much fun with it)

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[mjosparky 3]

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That means a situation where the second pilotchute, bridle and bag are also in the burble, so that arguement is sketchy at best.

Disclaimer: This is purely speculation.

The main reserve PC in very heavy in comparison due to the spring, cap and so on. The secondary PC is similar to a hand deploy and would be able to escape the burble easier.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[teason 0]

That's a really good point.
Bill, however, mentioned a situation where the riser covers are closed and the main is still in the container. As the Reflex is a poptop, the likely hood of the secondary PC would be able to come out would be rare as the spring isn't pushing the flaps open (unless there is something in the packing that I'm missing, I don't have a manual here and I haven't packed a reflex) I'll have to check my manuals after my bazillian Tandems today!

If the second PC is outside the flaps under the first PC, then possibly .... but if the second PC is contained in anyway, I think it would be a stretch.

Once again, a manual check could answer all.... or riggermick's input

I'll quit being grumpy now, it's a bad habit

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[riggermick 6]

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That's a really good point.
Bill, however, mentioned a situation where the riser covers are closed and the main is still in the container. As the Reflex is a poptop, the likely hood of the secondary PC would be able to come out would be rare as the spring isn't pushing the flaps open (unless there is something in the packing that I'm missing, I don't have a manual here and I haven't packed a reflex) I'll have to check my manuals after my bazillian Tandems today!

If the second PC is outside the flaps under the first PC, then possibly .... but if the second PC is contained in anyway, I think it would be a stretch.

Once again, a manual check could answer all.... or riggermick's input

I'll quit being grumpy now, it's a bad habit

Bills arguement is that the primary (spring loaded) pilot chute could somehow hang up the locking stows on the free bag if the catapult inflated and lifted the bag off while the primary is bouncing around in the burble. During all of the testing, both on the ground and in the air we could not get this to happen (locking up that is).


Video of SOME Catapult horse shoe test deployments show the bridle wrapped around the lines as they pay out (remember this is a horse shoed primary pilot chute deployment not a normal clean one). It did not affect the the opening in any way, in each case it happened a normally inflated reserve was the end result thus valadating the system.

Mick.

[BIGUN 1,048]

Bill,

I'm glad you jumped in here as I review this thread, my thoughts are; based on my observations of the Skyhook's reserve deployment in the field - IMO, the Skyhook would virtually eliminate a reserve PC horseshoe malfunction scenario. Am I way off base?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Pablito 0]

question for you? why will you like to make things more complicated? simple things work much more better.
I refuse to pack catapult systems, becuase there is a chance of bag lock. lets see hypoteticaly speaking. if one in 50 makes a bag lock, now i'm bringing the rate of malfunctions down, why will I do that?
some ideas work, other don't.
Cielos Azules
Pablito

"If you don't overcome your fears they will overcome you first"
Shady Monkey/6Segundos Rodriguez/AKA Pablito

[teason 0]

As I said before, I'm not sold on the catapult, I don't know enough about it. I just like to see fully formed arguements that are educated and relevent.

That is how we learn and understand things.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[darnknit 0]

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the likely hood of the secondary PC would be able to come out would be rare as the spring isn't pushing the flaps open

what pushes the flaps open and releases the D-bag on a main horseshoe malfunction with a hand deployed pilot-chute?

pulling is cool. keep it in the skin