skyjumpenfool 2 #1 December 17, 2009 This is out there on You Tube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fb4W1TBBGKI How's his technique? Comments, Critiques?? Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 0 #2 December 17, 2009 He needs to get those elbows in! Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #3 December 18, 2009 Well, you can tell he was taught by a military person. Hands up by the head...no flare? Rolling off to the side when momentum will be going forward? Elbows out? Knees separated? POUND IT IN AND ROLL MAGGOT! Yes, Drill Sergeant! My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #4 December 18, 2009 Elbows apart, hands low on the face, knees and feet apart, failure to shit and rotate, bending forward at the waist. Ending on the face... not much fun getting drug on your face. I dont even think my bad ones looked that bad... That landing will probably hurt alot!"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #5 December 18, 2009 QuoteWell, you can tell he was taught by a military person. Hands up by the head...no flare? Rolling off to the side when momentum will be going forward? They teach these cool things now, front and rear PLFs... scary shit, but they work (except on that last jump... me thinks it was a bit too windy for us to be jumping) but all of them still go thru the 5 points of contact, rolling it along your side and across your back, you just have to really force the shift and rotate more than the side plfs. I dont think I had any real left or right ones on my jumps, they always ended up front or backwards And actually, its front left and right, rear left and right. It didnt make much sense to me, but they sure as hell work."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #6 December 18, 2009 Quotefailure to shit and rotate I think he already shit himself under canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #7 December 19, 2009 My take on this one.... This guy did his first static line training today. Of course, the winds picked up so he didn't get to jump. He is so stoked, he just had to practice what he learned today. So, during his break at work, he got in a few landing falls. Sometimes we just forget what this sport does to Newbs..... Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy_Copland 0 #8 December 19, 2009 What a fucking dork 1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #9 December 19, 2009 QuoteQuotefailure to shit and rotate I think he already shit himself under canopy. At least he didn't Dump High! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Psychonaut 0 #10 December 19, 2009 I think it's somewhat extreme to take it to this extent (it's not AS bad if you don't tape it and put it online!) Sure, you should practice them a few times if not once in a while (yeah, right). You have to do it atleast in the FJC. I don't think it's one of those things you can practice, sure a few times with a few pointers will help but in my opinion it's more of a natural position and motion. Although, someone crashing under canopy might also think locking their knees and sticking out both arms is natural too so my theory is shit haha Stay high pull low Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wayneflorida 0 #11 December 20, 2009 I haven't done a text book PLF since ground and tower week in 1971. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #12 December 20, 2009 Quote I haven't done a text book PLF since ground and tower week in 1971. I sure have a few times, and they have saved my A$$. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BenediktDE 2 #13 December 21, 2009 Quote He needs to get those elbows in! and should get the knees locked together.For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #14 December 22, 2009 Quote I haven't done a text book PLF since ground and tower week in 1971. Yeah, Wayne...we keep trying to get you to do PLFs but you just insist on the old tried and true Crash and Burn technique. Can't teach old dogs new tricks. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #15 December 22, 2009 Quote Can't teach old dogs new tricks. Well Pops, in this case, "you can't teach the new dogs old tricks". Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OG-Tahiti 0 #16 December 22, 2009 I was wondering if the forward roll you see often used in Parkour videos wouldn't work better than a PLF? I mean any time I had to jump off a somewhat high object, I used that roll and it went fine... Seems like you get a much more fluid forward motion/roll. Is there something specific with the PLF that makes it better for hard landings? I mean these Parkour guys are dropping from pretty high using their forward landing roll..."Common sense is not so common" - Voltaire Dudeist Skydiver #9 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #17 December 22, 2009 Could you post a link to those vidoes?Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OG-Tahiti 0 #18 December 22, 2009 Here is a pretty good tutorial on the PK roll: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgPd29MlHpg See how high he jumps off on the last roll. He has a decent forward momentum and drops from pretty high. Really ressembles a landing you would want to PLF from right? I am still a n00b so maybe the risers and the gear would be in the way if you wanted to do a PK roll... Here is another with just PK rolls in slowmo from David Belle, one of the best french parkour dudes :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=781IFGmmbgE"Common sense is not so common" - Voltaire Dudeist Skydiver #9 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #19 December 22, 2009 QuoteI was wondering if the forward roll you see often used in Parkour videos wouldn't work better than a PLF? I mean any time I had to jump off a somewhat high object, I used that roll and it went fine... Seems like you get a much more fluid forward motion/roll. Is there something specific with the PLF that makes it better for hard landings? I mean these Parkour guys are dropping from pretty high using their forward landing roll... How exactly do you hold your risers/toggles while you're doing this? Ill stick with the tried and true method, that is too complicated for that split second that you have to do it in a corn field, under a small reserve, in bad weather, with a cracked visor on the helmet."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #20 December 22, 2009 re: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgPd29MlHpg OK. Being a former National Gymnastic Champion, I can speak to this.... It's very apparent that this guy has extensive gymnastics background. Not because he can do a Kp, Headspring, Front Salto, or land on concreate from high places, but because he uses techniques taugh by Gymnasts. I disagree with the turning of the head to protect it. First of all, because if you turn the head to the side, you're catching the fall on one shoulder. It is more efficient to catch the fall on both shoulders. Secondly, head position dictates direction. If you turn the head, you turn the body and subsequentely change the direction of flow. Not what you want to do unless it's neccesary. Another thing I see wrong here, and this I learned from skydiving and experience hitting the ground hard, he does not keep his feet and knees together. If you keep your feet and knees together, you decrease the chance of injury because your more likely to even out the shock between both legs. These are great techniques used by extreame athletes to survive hard falls. I would emphasise that these techniques require great physical condition, excellent flexibility and range of motion, along with years of experience to perfect. When in peak form, years before most readers of this forum were born, I was capable of performing these techniques. In fact, I once dove head first from 25 feet (measured) into sand. I didn't just do that, it took 13 years of competitive gymnastics, trampoline, and tumbling experience to gain the skill and ability. For 99% of the skydivers out there, I'd say just learn your PLF's as taught in your first jump course. They work when done correctly but need to be practiced to the point of being automatic.... When in trouble, your brain should automatically switch to PLF mode.Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #21 December 22, 2009 The Parkour roll is interesting, and thanks for the video links OG-Tahiti. I'm just musing, but I wonder if these are the problems with it for skydiving: 1. The issue of toggles. One could move one's hands anywhere after touching down, but it makes it at least somewhat harder to prepare for the parkour roll. 2. The use of hands on the ground, especially on rougher ground, exposes one to greater risk of hand and wrist injury. But one could argue this point either way, as a PLF exposes the whole side of one's body to the rough ground. 3. It is more "athletic" in that a tighter tuck is needed than in the PLF, which a) is tougher with equipment on, and b) may be tougher to do if one can't predict the impact timing well (eg, dropping in through tall grass in rough terrain), and c) I think it requires more precision to do correctly. The question is whether that can be gained just by more training, or ends up being tough to do when one can't judge one's impact speed as well. (I don't have proof but it always seems easier to roll when one jumps from something than when dropped under a canopy at a roughly constant speed. Evolution seems to have equipped us better to estimate the timing of impact when falling under the influence of Earth's gravity, rather than at something more like a constant or semi-flared speed. Jumping from something is more "natural".) 4. The PLF is adaptable to falls in all directions, unlike the Parkour roll. Granted, most skydivers are likely only practiced in PLF'ing in roughly one direction, eg. feeling comfortable rolling forward or forward right but not to the forward left. The military tend to practice rolls towards every quadrant since that's more likely needed with round canopies. 5. The Parkour roll might be absorbing more of the vertical impact on the initial leg & body bend. The torso keeps on descending, and the hands and lower arm are the next points of impact. While some impact can be taken that way, in the videos it often looks like it isn't one continuous roll. It is almost a landing on one's feet, with extra forward momentum, and the person throwing themselves into the forward roll at that point. The PLF may be more flexible in how much energy is absorbed in the initial leg & body bend, although one still needs to absorb a lot of the vertical speed that way, to avoid slamming the torso too hard on the ground. For example, at the end of the Ryan Doyle video he does a front flip off a say 7 ft high wall, touches down on his feet and continues through the Parkour roll. In slow motion you can see his arms hardly flex as he supports the roll with his hands. Despite his athleticism, I think he took almost all of the vertical impact in the initial landing (It is a different situation where Ryan Doyle does a dive up from level ground where he touches down on his arms only.) 6. [Edited in after seeing skyjumpenfool's post:] Good point about feet together. Having them apart may work well on flat level terrain that one can see, but not be good in those PLFs that have to be done in other types of conditions where the mutual support of feet together both prevents an ankle from rolling over and avoids taking too much of the impact on one foot. Like a couple of my other arguments, this doesn't make the Parkour roll worse on its own, but does mean it applies only to more specific conditions. While I see some potential issues with the Parkour roll for skydiving, I'm not totally ruling it out. Someone would need to practice it, at least wearing a rig, to get some better ideas on how practical it is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OG-Tahiti 0 #22 December 22, 2009 Thanks for you guys input on this :) I think that the most important thing is going into that "I will need to roll this one out" and get ready for it. How ever you plan on rolling it... I agree that the parkour or gymnast roll will take a lot more practice and require to be way more athletic than a PLF. The second video of david belle shows the 'proper' pk roll much better. He is jumping from higher than 12ft and you can see how he keeps his legs together when landing. Also if PLF has been used for years in skydiving hard landings there has to be a good reason ;)"Common sense is not so common" - Voltaire Dudeist Skydiver #9 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
icevideot 0 #23 December 22, 2009 Quote I would emphasise that these techniques require great physical condition... This is not usually rampant in skydiving from my observations. Thanks for the extra explaination by the way. Those stunts amaze me.For anyone suggesting these techniques: What I have observed is that if a jumper does not start with feet and knees together and has significant forward speed he is nearly doomed to "feet, knees, head" for his points of contact. That is assuming he even tries to "roll it out". Just my observations though. You could be special"... this ain't a Nerf world." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faissal.bd 0 #24 December 24, 2009 Okay, Everyone, First off, thank you all VERY MUCH for critiquing my technique. Had I known that I could have obtained so much feedback from you guys so quickly, I would have brought my attempts to your attention right away. It has been rather painful, personally, improving my technique using feedback from the pain, and I shall read through all of your comments when I get back to my campus, and implement your suggestions. For my training, thus far, I primarily used these videos (in no particular order of importance): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5Gzzle_GqI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QB8DeUbkEY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgpaOFAwF6U There was one more video that I used, in which the airborne jumped off a 'bench' with their hands where the risers would have been (had they been jumping with their 'chutes), but I cannot find that video, right now. As for my background, and why I did all this, I am an electrical engineering student, in New York, and when I discovered parkour during my senior year of my undergraduate studies (I am a graduate student, there, now), I started jumping off of higher and higher places (bad technique had prevented me from jumping for most of my life, and I was enjoying my new found freedom -- I suddenly felt like anything was possible). When I jumped off an 8 feet high wall, that year, I decided I wanted to fall thousands of feet (with the ground rushing at me, ever faster, and ever faster, till the world around me whizzed by so fast as to cause my peripheral vision to blur, and that sinking feeling in the stomach took greater and greater hold, until I was at the knife edge between desperation and ecstasy -- in other words, an amplified and longer version of how I felt my wall jumps to be), with a mental timer that at one point I would have to execute a quick, and smooth, action to brake my fall. I soon discovered BASE jumping, and found that the way into the sport was through skydiving. Hence, my interest in skydiving and parachuting, and my interest in the PLF arose out of my having watched PLFs in every WWII movie that I had seen as a kid, that featured parachute landings. It also turned out that every AFF course seems to teach PLFs. That video that you guys are all critiquing was probably my first PLF critique request video. I can only say that I have had two PLFs that were from any decent height (one flight of stairs, where there are two flights between two floors) that I was ever satisfied with, so I am hoping that I will get better under your guidance. Thank you all so much for your feedback. Sincerely, Faissal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #25 December 24, 2009 Try http://www.dukesofwindsoar.com/dukes.cgi?do=html&htmlfile=html/ppg_info/parachute_landing_fall.html instead, those videos arent going to help you much. They were made to remember the pain of hitting your head or not rotating enough, years later. ETA: This one too http://www.sportparagliding.com/?p=education&ed=PLF"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
