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"Katana 135, 150, 170 now available"

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I just happen to not like it's flight characteristics compared to more modern designs.

For the right applications I still think it's a great canopy but I believe it's uses are more and more limited in the current market with newer designs available.



I have to admit I am even more amazed by those comments.

I was hoping you would elaborate on both if you can.

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Allllright boys - take it outside :P

In my experience it's a bit of a "chocolate vs vanilla" situation. I wouldn't say the one canopy is better or worse than the other - they do possess very different flight characteristics that will appeal to different groups of jumpers.

Personally, I favor the way the Katana flies, and I prefer chocolate over vanilla. It all boils down to preferences.

Keep in mind that releasing the Katana didn't make the Stiletto any less of a performer - you still need some skill and experience under your belt before either one of those canopies is a suitable choice:)
Blue Skies Magazine

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Whoa, man, breathe! Ha, ha! The demos won't be ready for at least a couple of weeks yet. :)
Believe me, you'll be one of the first to know when I have them in my hot little hands. :D

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

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Allllright boys - take it outside



I'm of course not trying to pick a fight. I am asking for elaboration, which one person who I just got off the phone with provided. I would like the opinion of the gentleman that made these comments.

I have still not gotten any specifics related to these comments.

1. Which of the Stiletto's flight characteristics did he not like?
2. Which of it's uses are more and more limited?
3. Which of the Stiletto's flight characteristics listed in this document does he not like?
http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/stiletto.pdf

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Whoa, man, breathe! Ha, ha! The demos won't be ready for at least a couple of weeks yet. :)
Believe me, you'll be one of the first to know when I have them in my hot little hands. :D



I just knew your little hands were HOT!;)
Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

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So, who is the target audience for a Katana 150 or 170?



I can see a lot of people who just want Katana written somewhere on their canopy.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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1. Which of the Stiletto's flight characteristics did he not like?
2. Which of it's uses are more and more limited?
3. Which of the Stiletto's flight characteristics listed in this document does he not like?



1. I don't like the shallow toggle stroke at all. I find the openings fine, but not great. I don't like the amount of rear risers I can use on it. I don't like the extremely flat trim. I don't like how short the recovery arc is.

2. As a swooping canopy I find it's use rather limited. Not because someone can't swoop it (it's a VERY swoopable canopy) but rather todays canopy designs have longer toggle stroke, steeper dives and, generally, better response on the rears. For someone who just wants to have fun and spiral around a lot it's great. As a tool to prepare pilots for higher performance wings available today, there are better options. I do think that for bigger ways where a quicker opening is desirable they are suitable as well, of course that is slightly offset by heading control but that would be a factor on any of the other wings I mentioned, combined with a longer opening so in that sense I'd say the ST is more suitable as well.

3. That document is old. Show me comparisons between a similarly loaded Sabre2 (I bet it goes further), KA and Velo. Those are more modern designs.

Hope this answers your questions.

edit: While I dont have a boatload of jumps on ST's I do have 300 or so jumps on them and equivalents (Heatwave) in case there was any question that I'd even jumped one ;)

Blues,
Ian
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

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Good explanations, thanks.

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3. That document is old. Show me comparisions between a similarly loaded Sabre2 (I bet it goes further), KA and Velo.



Well, that's all I could find on the PD web site. And this may point out an issue with that type of document.

When they come out with a new canopy it gets compared to what they consider the next most recent design.

A matrix of canopies and their characteristics would be nice. We'll have to get Kolla right on that! :)

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A matrix of canopies and their characteristics would be nice. We'll have to get Kolla right on that! :)



Hehe...my job here is done if I've managed to make more work for Kolla :D:D:D

Glad my responses made sense (even if they only apply to my own opinons)!

Blues!
Ian
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

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Kolla

I'm enjoying my 120 Katana I'm about 180 out the door. I slowly getting used to it and it sure has a lot of range. I'm also slowly getting the landings figured out. You are right with your experience with the 135. With all the speed range that this canopy has the wing loading you put under it is just a matter of taste and preference. It's fun flying at a conservative wing loading that I'm flying mine at and has plenty of performance for me.

Chris

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Kolla,

Reference the Stiletto, I have about 700 jumps on my 135 and about 300 on my 120 and I've jumped other brands of canopies and when I put my 120 Stiletto on my back and made a jump it seemed like jumping and old friend for a canopy.

I bought the Katana 120 after demoeing one because I believe it just fly' cleaner, smoother and quieter than my Stiletto not that any of my Stiletto's were not great canopies cause they are.

Chris

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E



I don't know what "E" means, but I will smile and nod...

I read the http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/KatanaFlightCharacteristics.PDF on the Katana...

The line I like best:

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Try not to get your Katana wet, and never feed it after midnight.



I am glad PD has a sense of humor... So many technical documents have no humor in them.:P

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So, who is the target audience for a Katana 150 or 170?



Like AggieDave, I'm a big guy as well. ~270 exit weight, and I've been anxiously awaiting the KA.

I see alot of skydivers that are easily 210 lbs. With 20 lbs of gear, (on a 150) that's over a 1.5 WL, which I would venture to say is fairly common among experienced jumpers.

As far as the 170. Again, there are bigger jumpers out there. Is it going to be PD's #1 seller? Doubt it, but Velo 79's aren't their #1 seller either...

Jeff
Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

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Just because the Katana is capable of handling a heavier wingloading doesn't necessarily mean that everyone flying one has to load it up heavy.

There are a number of people who like the flight characteristics of the canopy at a lighter wingloading, that doesn't make them wrong; it's just their preference. All to often somebody will buy a canopy that they "have to load it to optimum wing loading" and 1) Don't like the canopy 2) are a hazard to themselves and everyone else 3) have a hard time landing the canopy or any other number of problems.

You don't need to be an aggressive canopy pilot in order to fly a Katana like some people will lead you to believe. It's a great canopy even at light wing loadings. Maybe someone has been jumping a Sabre2 170 for some time and now they are looking for a little more aggressive flight characteristics but don't want to be going any faster, the Katana 170 might just be exactly what they want, even if that means a 1.1-1 WL. The usual progression for people is, the more experienced they get, the smaller their canopy gets. Which is fine, but for some people they don’t want to necessarily go smaller and faster, they just want a canopy with “different” flight characteristics.

The Katana at any WL is not a canopy for a beginner, but for an experienced canopy pilot who wants an aggressive canopy at a light and manageable WL for them, the Katana 170 might just be the perfect fit.

Some might even like to fly it straight in, with out hooking it! :o

Isaiah

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So, who is the target audience for a Katana 150 or 170? What are the characteristics of the larger versions - do they become more of an "intermediate canopy"??? Who on your dropzone do you see flying a larger Katana?



I would work on actually landing your pilot 210 before considering anything more advanced. :D

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The Katana at any WL is not a canopy for a beginner, but for an experienced canopy pilot who wants an aggressive canopy at a light and manageable WL for them, the Katana 170 might just be the perfect fit.
:o

Isaiah


I did just that: I had the opportunity to put some jumps on a Katana 170 at roughly 1.4WL. That makes a damn fine canopy. First the openings are the best I've ever experience, the canopy is very responsive but not overly so, and the landing has ton of flare (more than my Safire II). That is a very tempting canopy, but since I do some WS it wouldn't be reasonable and the resale in Europe could be problematic (not much of a market for that kind of canopy)
Bottom line at "low" WL, Katana remains a very good canopy as long as you remain careful...

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I started this thread over a year ago when the canopy was new and no one knew how the larger ones flew.

I have owned a larger Katana at 1.4 wing load for now about a year, and put about 300 jumps on it.

It is not for everyone, but I love it. While I will do tame 90 degree front risers on landing - I did not get it so much for swooping, but for its all around range and fun handling.

Someone I know claimed that the 135, 150 and 170 are not "real Katanas, they changed the design completely, so they fly completely different." This rumor has gone around in a few circles, so I talked with PD to learn. They say that while canopies don't just scale larger by taking the photocopier and hitting 110% to the drawings, so they had to make changes to the design, especially in the slider, to make them open well - the canopy was designed to fly the same and have all the same attributes - and they don't believe the larger ones are different than the smaller ones.

A few weeks ago we did the sunset high pull. There were 7 of us total on the jump. Everyone else had Sabre/Safire class canopies in the 1.2 loading.

I touched everyone's canopy at least once. We were not doing formal crew, and people sometimes branched away from other groups, so there was a lot of distance to be closed. One of the guys landed and the first thing he said to me was:

"That Katana has so much range. I would watch you come to me, bump my endcell, pop over me and bump my other side, then you would see someone in the distance and suddenly zip over to him and leave me in the dust."

I purchased a Sabre2 last week as my wingsuit canopy and just jumped it a few times this weekend. I was using the Katana for wingsuits but I had to open higher to feel comfortable, which was not lining up with my long term wingsuit goals that I am training for - which are not aircraft related if you know what I mean.

My best wingsuit opening ever was on the Katana, but I also had a one that dived 720 degrees, eating up like 1000 feet while I was unzipping and reaching for things.... Unzipping wingsuits and harness turning is something I have not mastered at the same time.


After doing a high pull yesterday on the Sabre2, I will say it is a damn fine canopy too, had a bit more "stay in the sky" range, but I missed the Katana and regretted it was on my sofa.

I have learned there are a few things on the Katana even at low wing loadings for elliptical standards (1.4 to 1.5) that still make it a terrible choice for those without experience (duh).

Other than the obvious higher speed for landing (straight in, same wingloading, it is noticeably faster) and the diveability for landing swoops that without skill can turn into bad incidents - you have to fly the openings. If the canopy starts going one direction, with the brakes stowed, the canopy likes to keep going that direction. For an example, one of my first flights I pulled a rear with the brakes stowed to head away from a friend. I let up and the canopy kept turning, like another 360 degrees. I quickly learned to master the skill, by using less input and counter turning to stop the turn if need be - but proof you need a lot more subtle awareness and some skills before jumping it. These are not the swoop skills, but the skills that come with just being relaxed and comfortable enough in the sky that you can analyze what is going on realtime and how to fix it and prevent it from repeating... A few jumps later I was on a bigger formation, and I had a 90 left opening, and the person next to me had a 90 right. We were very close. If I would have not mastered the sensitivity of the rear risers with the brakes stowed, it would have been an incident report as the overturn I did a few jumps earlier would have been very bad on that jump. Proof you need to do a few hopnpops and practice all sorts of drills, even if you are just switching designs, not wingloadings.

Also, line twists become particularly challenging. I have had only three I can remember. Two were about 1 twist, maybe less, and the G forces of the opening caused me to swing out of them instantly with no input. Another I almost chopped, it was two twists that kicking was not helping and the G forces were adding up. When I gave up kicking, I arched and reached for the cutaway, and just the getting smaller in a ball caused me to suddenly spin out of the twists. I knew exactly where I pulled and exactly where I got out of the twists and dive. I had video running, so I could time the dive. The speed in which the dive was going was near freefall speeds, and while I would not say I was surprised by the speed, I would be seriously concerned about someone who is not current or comfortable in freefall being faced with such a high G force and fast malfunction.

So my personal opinion is that the Katana at 1.4 wingloading is a crap load of fun, but has to be respected. It is not a swoop monster velocity loaded 1.8, but it is not a square 1.4 either. I am definitely going to keep it as my workhorse canopy.

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Someone I know claimed that the 135, 150 and 170 are not "real Katanas, they changed the design completely, so they fly completely different."***

I still stand by what I said about the large Katanas. I had a chance to jump a KA135 for 150 jumps while my KA120 was having the demons exorcised from it. I was loading the 135 at about 1.39, which is about what you are loading your KA170 at, so I feel the comparison is pretty close. The biggest difference in these larger models is they don't stay in a dive like the smaller ones do. I think my Sabre2 120 stayed in a dive longer than the KA135. The openings were also longer on the 135, the canopy would snivel for what seemed like eternity, long enough for me to think to myself "Jesus, open already!”. The canopy felt like a ground hungry version of the sabre2, which I have owned 2 different sizes of. My KA120, and now my KA107 feel much more high performance, and I don't believe that is solely due to the wing loading increase. The openings are faster, but not hard, the smaller models also stay in a dive much longer than the 135. I think that the Katana is a swoop canopy and the larger sizes are getting away from that fact. I'm not sure exactly who the larger wings are made for. Perhaps just those who want to feel cool when they say they jump a Katana, when in fact they have no desire for high performance landings and should most likely stick to a wing that is more forgiving. I understand that scaling a canopy is difficult, and I also believe there is good reason that the "big Katanas" took so long to hit the market, I think a lot had to be changed on these wings in order to make them fly (not really) like the smaller sizes. And of course PD isn't going to say "Yeah, the canopies we've been working on for a few years now don't fly at all like the smaller versions" that would make them sound retarded. They want to sell as many canopies as possible and agreeing with a seemingly asshole statement like "these fly nothing like the smaller ones" would be stupid. So "I talked with PD" doesn't hold much ground with me.

This is all simply my opinion on one of the larger sized Katanas and how it compares to the other sizes I have jumped. So, take from it what you will.

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I think that the Katana is a swoop canopy and the larger sizes are getting away from that fact. I'm not sure exactly who the larger wings are made for. Perhaps just those who want to feel cool when they say they jump a Katana, when in fact they have no desire for high performance landings and should most likely stick to a wing that is more forgiving.



Very entertaining, whos point are you trying to make?? :D If the Katana is a swoop canopy and the larger sizes are getting away from that, then they are by definition more forgiving (or more unstable, which we all agree is not the case). Besides, If you want to "feel" cool then you need to say you jump a velocity, excuse me I mean Velo (cool guy speak)

Im no expert but I would think the larger sizes are for larger jumpers with the experience level that is acceptable to jump said wing within the manufacturers w/l range. Whether they swoop or not is irrelevant...

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I was loading the 135 at about 1.39, which is about what you are loading your KA170 at, so I feel the comparison is pretty close. The biggest difference in these larger models is they don't stay in a dive like the smaller ones do.



I disagree. That's more of a function of your wingloading vs the amount of drag the larger canopy has. Having jumped the Katana 135, 150 and 170 I can tell you that the larger Katanas have every bit of the performance of the smaller canopies. There are obvious limitations with larger canopies and drag, but its not as drastic between those three sizes as you seem to make it. Then again I load the 170 a bit over 1.6:1, about 1.9:1 on the 150 and about 2.1:1 on the 135. I found that the Katana 150 out dove my old XF2 149 by about 50ft and felt significantly faster. I also found that the swoop distance increased significantly as well. I felt like even the 150 was starting to rival my Velo 120's ability to dive, hold the dive and build speed.

Small people under the larger wing will obviously feel like they don't perform as well. Wingloading does that.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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Hey, boozy - now that I am back from a meeting and have posted my sarcastic reply to you - I am willing to have an intelligent conversation about this subject too.

I believe you had a different experience on the 120 than the 135. I never said you didn't... I just said I talked to PD, and they said they made no intentional design changes to the larger ones, just what was required to make them open and fly the way they wanted.

Honestly, I am surprised about what you said about the openings being slow... I have not found that on the 150 or 170.

Also - since you compared the 120 sabre2 to the 135 katana - and said the dive was longer on the sabre2 - I thought about this...

As I posted prior, I just got a Sabre2 for wingsuiting and as a second canopy. It is the same wing loading as my katana.

You probably have watched me land and know that I do lame-ass by swoop standards, very conservative front riser 90s on the katana. I have dialed it in to the point I know my setup point, I know my altimeter down to the nearest 10 foot mark, such that I will land within my target area, plus or minus a few feet... A few weekends ago I was within 10 feet of my target 6 jumps in a row trying to fine tune my skills...


I did the exact same setup with the Sabre2 on Sunday - 5 times in a row, to learn it's difference... Same altitude, same setup point.

I found I was much higher, out of the dive, and flying wings level about 100 to 150 feet higher than the Katana - and overshot the target by over 150 feet. It felt like the bottom of a roller coaster hill, quickly leveling out and speed decreasing rapidly. Considering my setup altitude, the difference in altitude loss is about 40% in the same dive.

So, you say:

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I think my Sabre2 120 stayed in a dive longer than the KA135.



You are mixing wing loading and canopy shape in the same argument. I don't doubt you might be accurate for what you experienced.

However, I believe, from my 5 jumps on the Sabre2 - that at the exact same wingloading - the Katana says in a dive longer, based upon real numbers.

(although I will admit, based upon many factors other than just wingloading - like line lengths, scaling of fabric, you might have had a different experience with the smaller wings)

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I don't know what A. Capers means. Latin for something mean? Anyway, did you not read the bottom of my post where I said this is simply my opinion? I didn't mean that line about being cool as a direct shot to you, Travis. I didn't deserve that asshole attack from you. You barely say two fucking words to me in real life, yet you will attack me on the internet? How old are you? I almost never post on here, but I saw a post from a fellow mile-hi jumper, which to the best of my knowledge involved me. So, I posted what I thought about the situation. The end.

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