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scaredy_kat

A plea for help - landing

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I have around 200 jumps and still really struggle with landings.

I am a conservative canopy pilot jumping a 170 and all I want to do is get down safely, however seem to struggle with consistency in my landings, particularly judging flare height in windy conditions. Sometimes I seem to fare too high, others too low and I just don't seem to know why.

Does anyone have any advice on this? Are some people just less good at judging flare heights? What can you do to try to improve?

Thank you

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If you can get to one, a canopy class will help. I'm not the best flarer in the world, either, but I set up to PLF most of the time, and stand up if it's looking good.
You can also either buy or borrow Brian Germain's book The Parachute and its Pilot

Remember that looking awesome while landing is done for other people. Landing safely is done for you.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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Get a thorough eye exam. Especially have your depth perception checked. It is not usually checked on an average eye exam but if you have perception difficulties a lot of the standard canopy instruction will be hard to put into practice. I have practically no depth perception and even after 30 years I have to really pay attention at flair time for the visual cues. It will be much easier once you discover any type of vision impairment and then learn to compensate for it but that is a lengthy subject. Get checked first.

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Outside video and coaching are hard to beat. Seeing your landings on video and having someone with a good eye helping to analyze can show you things that are hard to pick up on when you're doing them. After seeing it from the outside, it's easily corrected. Usually. All your friends have GoPros. For a beer, someone will go out and video your landing. Just don't make them run too far. If so, then you need to work on accuracy too. Get an instructor to watch the vid and talk you through it. That will cost another beer. Repeat this till things get better.

But don't discount the advice for vision check.

Kevin K.

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What type of canopy and loading?

I ask because I had similar sounding issues. My canopy choice at 1.3 was too much for me at like 100 jumps especially since it's known for a weaker flare. I was basically piling in all the time.

I upsized to a Pulse at like 1.0 and jumped that for a couple hundred jumps. Landings improved immediately. Now I jump a Sabre 2 170 and landings so far have been great. I've also taken some great canopy courses.

Axis's class at Eloy and Brian Germain came to our DZ for a weekend class were both great.

Another thing that helped me was Brian Germain's video "Solving Common Landing Problems" and his safety one. The book is great but it's really deep and didn't help me at first. The landing video helped a lot.

Lastly, I wish I would have worn some knee pads (like the G-form pads) at first. Would have saved my knees a lot of grief from a couple bad ones.

Once you learn it right it becomes a lot easier!
Chance favors the prepared mind.

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As for flare height in windy conditions:
I'm not sure there's any accepted theory on this, but mine is that the flare height should be pretty much the same as normal -- or slightly less if doing a faster flare.

You "need less flare" when landing into stronger winds, but the canopy still has to plane out, and that will take the same amount of time and vertical distance as usual. It is only the planed out part that doesn't need to take as much time as one doesn't have to kill as much horizontal ground speed.

Minor possible change to flare height:
During the plane out one may be allowing oneself to descend very slightly if leaving a margin for error on the initial flare (eg, plan to plane out 2 ft up if uncertain of one's flare), so if one is using less plane out time, one would want to plane out a bit lower and thus start the whole flare a tiny bit lower.

The exception to flaring at essentially the same height is with very strong winds or slow canopies, where a standard slow gradual flare might slow one down too much and end up landing backwards. In that case, a sharp, aggressive flare can plane the canopy out from a lower altitude and still retain enough airspeed to touch down going forwards.

So overall: Unless your perception of height is messed up by different ground speed (which is possible too), basically just flare at the normal height in strong winds.

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scaredy_kat

I have around 200 jumps and still really struggle with landings.

I am a conservative canopy pilot jumping a 170 and all I want to do is get down safely, however seem to struggle with consistency in my landings, particularly judging flare height in windy conditions. Sometimes I seem to fare too high, others too low and I just don't seem to know why.

Does anyone have any advice on this? Are some people just less good at judging flare heights? What can you do to try to improve?

Thank you



A 170 what?
Some canopies can be trickier to land.

My advice, including all above, is to go in to some brakes before flaring.
Pull down the toggles to head height at perhaps 12 feet.
This will slow down your canopy and it will be easier to time the flare.
But this will also remove some of the flare power, not much but you may notice some change in the flare.
I believe even with less flare your landing will be better because it's easier to time the flare.

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Thank you everyone.

Canopy 'regression' is exactly right. Just when I start to think I've cracked it, i'll make a misjudgement and frighten myself that I can get it so wrong. Accuracy isn't the problem, its just what happens in those last few seconds!

I've done the flight 101 course, however may benefit from re sitting it. And the stuff about eye tests is also interesting - I have never had one and probably should, however even on windier days sometimes I will flare too early, others too late, which makes me think the problem is in my brain, not my eyes!

I am currently jumping a triathlon 175 hybrid with a wing loading of 1:1. I have done about 100 jumps on this canopy. I have tried others (sabre 2 - didn't get on with, silhouette - really liked but not tried in windy conditions) but I am not sure if any canopy would make a difference it its me that it getting it wrong.

Thank you again all - good to get some other opinions.

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Hi Kat,
this is from a low jump number, low skill n00b with almost no talent, so you may as well discount it right away ;-)

Just thought of asking, are you sure you're not overly critical? How bad are your landings exactly? I could probably flare a little better on every one of my landings, but as long as I'm landing standing up, don't have to run, and nothing hurts, it's fine.

Having your depth perception checked by a doctor or optometrist is definitely a good idea. Also (and I bet I'm not alone on this) some people have an altered depth perception when wearing sunglasses or tinted goggles. I have to use clear goggles only, I've noticed that the tinted ones (or sunglasses) make it harder for me to land a parachute, a light aircraft, or to hit a tennis ball.

Oh and, yes, have some people on the ground film your landings - that's probably worth the beers :)

Good luck!
Andrei

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Andrei_Serban

Hi Kat,
this is from a low jump number, low skill n00b with almost no talent, so you may as well discount it right away ;-)

Just thought of asking, are you sure you're not overly critical? How bad are your landings exactly? I could probably flare a little better on every one of my landings, but as long as I'm landing standing up, don't have to run, and nothing hurts, it's fine.

Having your depth perception checked by a doctor or optometrist is definitely a good idea. Also (and I bet I'm not alone on this) some people have an altered depth perception when wearing sunglasses or tinted goggles. I have to use clear goggles only, I've noticed that the tinted ones (or sunglasses) make it harder for me to land a parachute, a light aircraft, or to hit a tennis ball.

Oh and, yes, have some people on the ground film your landings - that's probably worth the beers :)

Good luck!
Andrei



Good call on sunglasses/goggles, Personally this is the reason why I only use sunglasses that are optically flawless, cheapo brands and even some better brands mess up my depth perception real bad and I can easily imagine what it might do ones landings...

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scaredy_kat

I've done the flight 101 course, however may benefit from re sitting it.



+1

I just did Flight 101 at well over a thousand jumps, and whaddya know - my flare height was not ideal, and pretty inconsistent.

Feeling tons better now - I'm going to do it again in a few months and see.

Hybrid Triathlons are somewhat finicky to land, in my limited experience of them. Silhouettes, as did you, I found really nice to land. Sometimes the canopy does matter.
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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stayhigh

isn't hybrid tri meant to be used for both CRW and terminal?

if that is the case, aren't they known to have fast openings with shitty flair?




Have never jumped one, but I think you are right.
Lightnings is as far as I know equal-ish, and they are hard to land.
To fly with other CRW canopies it has to fly very flat, which means it is already in brakes as you flare.

I think what you need is some front riser input before you flare.
Don't try it without guidence first. If you mess up you will hurt yourself.

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Brian Germain told me that a Triathlon is the second hardest canopy to land. It's also the one so had trouble with at first. Good canopy but an older design and tough to time and get sufficient flare for some, especially starting out.

Seriously, switching to a Pulse improved my landings and learning right away.
Chance favors the prepared mind.

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stayhigh

isn't hybrid tri meant to be used for both CRW and terminal?

if that is the case, aren't they known to have fast openings with shitty flair?



The hybrid triathlon is the freefall version of the Tri but with extra reinforcement, a CF lineset and the possibility of using a retractable bridle (or a normal one if you prefer, for non-CF jump). Due to the reinforcements and thicker lines it packs up a bit bigger than the regular Tri.

So basically it opes flies and lands just like a regular Tri, nothing at all like a Lightning (I've owned all 3).

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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Hellis

***isn't hybrid tri meant to be used for both CRW and terminal?

if that is the case, aren't they known to have fast openings with shitty flair?




Have never jumped one, but I think you are right.
Lightnings is as far as I know equal-ish, and they are hard to land.
To fly with other CRW canopies it has to fly very flat, which means it is already in brakes as you flare.

I think what you need is some front riser input before you flare.
Don't try it without guidence first. If you mess up you will hurt yourself.

Ehm, see my previous reply.

Also, if a canopy is flying in brakes when flaring it is shortlined. You can do that, some teams do, but my Lightnings never were. In fact I put extra links on the back risers to make my first Lightning 126 dive more! On account of having a lower WL than most jumpers I jumped with and not wanting to jump a Lightning 113 at a couple hundred jumps and not wanting to add more than ~8 kg of lead (did jump with 12kg for a bit, but man...)

BTW I never had that much difficulty in landing Lightnings, I never added forward speed either (you have to hold it until REALLY low with canopies with a very short recovery arc like these, no thanks...).
Not sure I'd recommend landing on double fronts on a regular/hybrid Tri to a 200 jump jumper I don't know either.
The issue is probably something else, like timing, finishing or brake line length/entire lineset.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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Hellis

I think what you need is some front riser input before you flare.



I would suggest, that if a canopy requires you to front-riser it to land well, and you don't get anything in return (ie., you don't do CRW so you want the other flight characteristics), then you should consider a different canopy.

There's a reason nobody else jumps Lightnings :P
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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scaredy_kat

particularly judging flare height in windy conditions. Sometimes I seem to fare too high, others too low and I just don't seem to know why.



Something to consider: Your flare height (and indeed the rest of it) is always exactly the same, no matter what the wind is doing. You need to develop a sense of flare timing that is independent of your forward speed... as the Flight One instructor will have taught you, unless it's turbulent, the ground winds are not relevant to your landing procedure. You are flying through the air, whether or not that air is itself moving across the ground does not affect how you fly.

The ground is just the ground, it doesn't really affect your flare - just the way you put your feet down.

I only really absorbed this a couple of weeks ago, and it's radically changed my landing experience. On Monday I was jumping in zero winds; on Sunday in 20kts, and both were good. And I flared the same.
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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dragon2

******isn't hybrid tri meant to be used for both CRW and terminal?

if that is the case, aren't they known to have fast openings with shitty flair?




Have never jumped one, but I think you are right.
Lightnings is as far as I know equal-ish, and they are hard to land.
To fly with other CRW canopies it has to fly very flat, which means it is already in brakes as you flare.

I think what you need is some front riser input before you flare.
Don't try it without guidence first. If you mess up you will hurt yourself.

Ehm, see my previous reply.

Also, if a canopy is flying in brakes when flaring it is shortlined. You can do that, some teams do, but my Lightnings never were. In fact I put extra links on the back risers to make my first Lightning 126 dive more! On account of having a lower WL than most jumpers I jumped with and not wanting to jump a Lightning 113 at a couple hundred jumps and not wanting to add more than ~8 kg of lead (did jump with 12kg for a bit, but man...)

BTW I never had that much difficulty in landing Lightnings, I never added forward speed either (you have to hold it until REALLY low with canopies with a very short recovery arc like these, no thanks...).
Not sure I'd recommend landing on double fronts on a regular/hybrid Tri to a 200 jump jumper I don't know either.
The issue is probably something else, like timing, finishing or brake line length/entire lineset.


I think you missunderstood me or just wanted to start an argument.

I did not say the canopy is in brakes. It flies as if it was.
Big difference.
A lightning flys flatter because the lines are not as a reserve (which is about the same), they are shorter on the rear lines which makes it fly slower and flater.
This is pretty much the same thing as having the rears slightly pulled down when landing on a reserve.
That is what I meant about it flies as if it was in brakes.

Really good for you that you can add a extra link on the rears to overcome this issue, but not everyone can do that.
It's about geting a flight that is close to what the other people you fly with.

Also (again) I did not mean you are supposed to pull the fronts all the way down to your knees and do a multi rotation.
It's about putting your hands on the fronts and just bend them with only your hand twisting.
This probably makes the canopy fly as your with an extra link on the rears.

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Joellercoaster

***particularly judging flare height in windy conditions. Sometimes I seem to fare too high, others too low and I just don't seem to know why.



Something to consider: Your flare height (and indeed the rest of it) is always exactly the same, no matter what the wind is doing. You need to develop a sense of flare timing that is independent of your forward speed... as the Flight One instructor will have taught you, unless it's turbulent, the ground winds are not relevant to your landing procedure. You are flying through the air, whether or not that air is itself moving across the ground does not affect how you fly.

The ground is just the ground, it doesn't really affect your flare - just the way you put your feet down.

I only really absorbed this a couple of weeks ago, and it's radically changed my landing experience. On Monday I was jumping in zero winds; on Sunday in 20kts, and both were good. And I flared the same.

I would agree on the flare height (decent rate is the same), but the rate of flare and the depth of the stroke vary a lot for me between no wind days and days when the wind is 80% of my forward airspeed. I am lightly loaded and if I fully flare on a windy day, it will lift me right back up into the air.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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All of the above responses provide some excellent ideas. However, consider this observation.

Your profile says you joined here in 2010. (5 years - 8 months)

Unless you made most of your jumps this past year - 200 jumps averaged out is fewer than 40 jumps per year.

I wouldn't expect too much improvement averaging 3 or 4 jumps per month. Canopy flight skills are depreciable skills.

I suggest you put your knees in the breeze more often.
Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

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This might sound stupid from a newbie like myself, but if you aren't already you should look forward instead of down to better judge your actual height. Specially if you have trouble with seeing depths.
You have a much better idea of how high you are if you look straight forward and line yourself up with the horizon.

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