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drjump

1-800-SkyRide

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Well yea, but I knew you already knew that, don't get me wrong here, we on the same page in regards to skyscam and those who deal with them.

I find myself between picking the lesser of two evils in order to jump now, the same as many other jumpers across the USA.>:(

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Please send any request to me via PM or a phone call i will be able to respond in a more timely matter, as i do not have the time to constantly check through the forum Thank you 800-214-8611
Ryan Berger
Business Development & Vendor Relations for 1-800Skyride

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does that translate to "I'd rather deal with issues in private so not eveyone is privy to the details"?

seems just as easy to check the forum where ALL the messages are instead of sorting through them one at a time in PM's...

maybe it's just me...

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does that translate to "I'd rather deal with issues in private so not eveyone is privy to the details"?

seems just as easy to check the forum where ALL the messages are instead of sorting through them one at a time in PM's...

maybe it's just me...



Did you notice that he never responded or replied to the definition of fraud . . . I wonder, have we reached the extent of the amount that he can deceive himself before common sense takes over?
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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Please send any request to me via PM or a phone call i will be able to respond in a more timely matter, as i do not have the time to constantly check through the forum Thank you 800-214-8611



I'm still waiting for your reply about seattleskydivers.com...



mh
.
"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

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give him a min dude!
:D:D:D



That's "min" as in, "min"imum of a day to check with B&C on what he should say, right? :)


I believe my post was well over a day ago - but still no response to show the difference between what he thinks fruad is and the definition of it.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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dude, he's out partying when his customers are looking to jump with a worthless certificate, you expect a response????
:S
I wonder if the customer accepts that as an excuse to a problem resolution?
"my certificate is only good 400 miles from my home"
"sorry, I was out partying, what's the problem again, and give me a min to think of a response"
:|

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dude, he's out partying when his customers are looking to jump with a worthless certificate, you expect a response????
:S
I wonder if the customer accepts that as an excuse to a problem resolution?
"my certificate is only good 400 miles from my home"
"sorry, I was out partying, what's the problem again, and give me a min to think of a response"
:|



LOL

I wonder which one his hero is, B or C . . .
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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I have followed this thread for some time on all of the sections listed, Yes! they are different threads but the bottom line complain is always the same "SKYRIDE" Everyone is quick to place blame, But! I have seen no one look at the chain of events that has orchestrated this event. Lets go back 30 plus years and see what we have came to.
Most DZs at that time were cessna operations, most never flew higher than 7,500 a few would do 9,000, if you wanted more altitude you had to attend a very infrequent boogie to get 12,500 out of a D-18 Beech or a DC-3, the cost to altitude was a buck a thousand $12.50. Tandem was soon to arrive and cost around $100.00 per jump, you could buy a brand new Tandem rig for $3,200.00, you could buy a D-18 for $25,000 to $40,000 and a DC-3 for $60,000, fuel was $0.60 a gallon, At that time a DZ or club would produce a reasonable profit for hauling experienced jumpers, There were fewer members of USPA but that jumped every weekend and made many more jumps. It was not the norm of any operation to aggressively pursue students training programs, they kind of got in the way of skydiving which was profitable and less of a risk and hassle!
Fast forward to 2007 now many DZs are turbine operations, average exit altitudes are so high that the FAA is investigating why we don't require supplemental oxygen to keep jumpers and pilots from blacking out, many experienced jumpers now have never jumped a cessna, or any piston powered aircraft. The cessna is replaced with a $600,000.00 to $1,000,000.00 turbine, fuel costs, $3.50 plus a gallon (and turbines love fuel) Tandem rigs are $13,500.00 plus, There are more USPA members but they frequent the DZs much less and the average number of jumps per year per member is way down! We now pay $1.50 per thousand for altitude so there is no profit in experienced jumpers, the DZOs must find a way to make a profit and keep the required turbine running so they must aggressively pursue student programs so they can stay in business. OPPS! I said something that many experienced jumpers keep forgetting the B word "BUSINESS" that is what a Drop Zone is. It must produce revenue to pay for and support all of the required equipment and services, pay a working staff, and offer the operators a reasonable profit for the risk they assume and service they provide. Now we come to SKYRIDE if they were not deceptive in their advertising and dealing with the public, I believe there would be far less complaints from jumpers. To a DZO it is another outlet that can produce profit for the business (OH! I said the B word again! "BUSINESS) they may not agree with the methods that are used by skyride in selling jumps to customers, but they cannot afford to turn away a profitable customer when so many of the local jumpers whom frequent their establishment produce no profit (experienced jumpers) If they made their decisions solely on ethics they could place their DZs into more financial risk!
I read that they (skyride) are taking our students? this confuses me, there are no demographic lines drawn that states that all persons whom live in an certain area are the business property of an existing DZ? So how can these students be taken? I have also read that the money made for skyride by the DZs that except their certificates are supporting Skyrides legal battle with USPA, this is true to some extent, but has anyone considered the legal mistakes made by USPA in the pursuance of skyride on behalf of their members which created a legal basis for the action? No one has clean hands in this situation, so we can place no blame or guilt.
So we come to this, these are the things as I see that support the current situation and must be changed for this situation to cease to continue.

1. Experienced jumpers must support their respective DZs more, (more jumps) make an assertive effort on their part to bring to the DZs students and Tandem students, and pay a increased price for lift tickets which will allow the "BUSINESS" to make a profit for the service they request.

2. Skyride must operate ethically in dealing with potential customers and be truthful in their practises, operations, and locations where they offer services, if they did this more DZs would except their certificates which would in turn relieve the travel complaints, and deception.

3. The public must become more informed of advertising practises, in the US it has become a common practise to stretch the truth in advertising to the braking point, and respond if caught with "well everybody does it" this may be true to some extent, but it does not make it ethically correct. The public cries victim when things go bad! but overlook the fact that they are partially responsible for being lazy and researching locations and DZs before they buy! This street runs both ways.

4. USPA should exercise their responsibility to require all group member DZs meet and operate within the BSRs and FARs and guidelines as layed out in the GM pledge, and make an efford on their own part to work within the ethics standards that they hold all other members to.

What I am saying is that the current cowboys and indians standards that is being allowed to stand in the sport will be our downfall, All of this finger pointing! I won't jump there! These guys are wrong! Bullshit will get us no where, and has no effect on skyride or the DZs whom except their sales. We need to stop bickering amongst ourselves and unite for the common good of the sport it is not us against each other! we need to pull our ranks in and pursue the fact that it is us against the rest of the world. Just my opinion.

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You completely miss the point.

Skyride generates their business through Fraud and deception. It is not just a matter of the customer did not do their homework. The customers are LIED to from the very beginning.

Take the Skydive Spokane example Dave gave earlier. IT you visit a website called Skydive Spokane, Would it not be reasonable to assume that a)There is such a Place and B) that place would be somewhere reasonably near to Spokane??

The fact that No such place actually exists and that Skyride affiliate is 100`s of miles away is Deception. They take the customers money and then refuse to refund the money when the customer finds out the truth and that is Fraud.

Dropzones that are affiliates for Skyride also guilty for getting involved with a company that is based on Fraud and Deception.

Even the webpages they use for their fake Dropzones were either stolen from Real Dropzone and/or Jumpers and the Pictures they use to perpetuate their lies are also Stolen.

This not about BUSINESS. This is about a company that lies, cheats and steals to make money. The dropzones that do business with this company knowing their history are absolutely no better than the Skyride because they are knowingly profiting from Skyrides Lies.

Jumpers should know if their Dropzones take Skyride or Not so that the can make an Informed decision if they want to continue to support this behavior. That is why I have the State by State List started in General Skydiving listing the Dropzones that DO take skyride and those that do not. That way jumpers can see their options.

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So in the long run, you can print the t-shirts and boycott the dz's listed if you want too, but dare I say, your pissing in the wind and a handful of jumpers or DZ.com posters won't change shit, the jokes on you!

Face it the sport has been sold out.



But we can still try to make a change. Maybe if we start a petition? People who refuse to jump at these DZ's as long as they still accept skyride certs.? A well written letter and a signed petition list might not make a big difference, but at least it would let these DZ's know where some of us stand.

The sad part is, DZ's don't have to take Skyride to compete with them. Look how much success the Farm has had, it just keeps getting better & better, and it's right in Skyride's back yard. If they can keep generating business in spite of all the fake websites, and Skyride marketing, any DZ can do it. Especially the big name ones that already have a presence. Spence is right, the solution is simple. I just think the jumpers in California haven't experienced Skyride's adverse effects as strongly as those of us who live and jump in the Southeast have, therefore they don't feel as strongly about it. And when ALL the DZs in your area take Skyride, that is a sad sad situation to me. Looking at that list makes me sick. :|

Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091

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Now we come to SKYRIDE if they were not deceptive in their advertising and dealing with the public, I believe there would be far less complaints from jumpers.

You are right in this . . .
If the business had ethical prctices and hadn't stolen,lied or commited fraud . . . there would be no reason to be upset.

IF they hadn't done this to begin with.

There is no turning back now.

the ends DO NOT justify the means.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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Laura,

Your right, someone has to keep up the good fight, but you have to keep in mind that the owners don't care what you or a hand full of jumpers think about them taking skyscam tickets, because your a dime a dozen, the day you and ten of your buddys walk off the dz there will still be the skyscam riders and 12 more up jumpers to replace you @ big dz's like Perris, the owners don't really care if you stay or go, if they needed you that bad there wouldn't be the flightline line up that they have and it's paid for too.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Your right, someone has to keep up the good fight, but you have to keep in mind that the owners don't care what you or a hand full of jumpers think about them taking skyscam tickets, because your a dime a dozen, the day you and ten of your buddys walk off the dz there will still be the skyscam riders and 12 more up jumpers to replace you @ big dz's like Perris, the owners don't really care if you stay or go, if they needed you that bad there wouldn't be the flightline line up that they have and it's paid for too.



Do you really believe that? I don't. I think fun jumpers can make or break a dropzone. Up jumpers bring in business by word of mouth. At SWC, which part of the business fell off first, the tandems or the up jumpers? I'm no DZO, but I seriously think that keeping the up jumpers happy is a very integral part of the business.

I'm just trying to think of ways we can get these big DZ's to stop accepting Skyride tickets. I know a boycott isn't practical for everyone, especially when the only DZ's in your area all accept Skyride tickets. But I'm lucky, I have a choice, and I am going to choose not to spend my money at any drop zone that is enabling Skyride to flourish. It might not be much, but it is something I can do.

I doubt that most people that jump at these DZ's even know that they take Skyride. I never even thought to check before, because I thought such a small percentage of DZ's participated. I think educating more up jumpers is at least a start...

I bet most these places had their flightline established before Skyride came along. I also bet they could all keep on generating sufficient business to keep their flightline without giving in to skyride.

Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091

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It all boils down to personal integrity. This is about not supporting dishonest businesses. If a DZ takes Skyride, They have integrity issues. If a Jumper supports a DZ that takes Skyride, the same could be said about them.

The only way that we as jumpers can do anything about this problem is to vote with our feet. Do not support DZO`s that Support Skyride. It may not make any difference at all, They may just say Good riddance to you. But atleast you will know you did the right thing.

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But atleast you will know you did the right thing.



I agree with J, he is so smart. :)

This discussion got me thinking about the following quote...
"I am only one, but still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do."

Don't know the source, but it's one I've known & liked for a while.

Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091

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You completely miss the point.

Skyride generates their business through Fraud and deception. It is not just a matter of the customer did not do their homework. The customers are LIED to from the very beginning.

Dropzones that are affiliates for Skyride also guilty for getting involved with a company that is based on Fraud and Deception.

Even the webpages they use for their fake Dropzones were either stolen from Real Dropzone and/or Jumpers and the Pictures they use to perpetuate their lies are also Stolen.

Jumpers should know if their Dropzones take Skyride or Not so that the can make an Informed decision if they want to continue to support this behavior. That is why I have the State by State List started in General Skydiving listing the Dropzones that DO take skyride and those that do not. That way jumpers can see their options.



I see your point, what I am saying is that every action has a cause! a situation which will force change than becomes the root for the action!
When DZs made profit from experienced jumpers they they were not forced to focus their attempts to profit from the student base! When experienced jumpers started crying Turbine and 15,000 plus feet as an everyday requirement at a DZ the cost of providing the service went through the roof and eliminated any profit from the experienced jumpers. They than refuse to pay what the cost is reflective of purchasing and operating a turbine aircraft, they say it would be to expensive and they would limit their jumping or just stop. The DZOs are forced to seek out alternative programs to create the monies that are needed to offer the requested turbine service which the experienced jumpers would boycott paying for, when they are the ones requesting this service as a standard, stand on the shoulders of the student programs and derive the largest benefit from the request. We all are responsible to some extent for the current situation. It is very easy to place blame on the DZs and skyride, but yet justify in our own minds our refusal to pay our fair share and create a profit for the sport we say we love. If you are all about the sport as I hear persons state here, than how are these proposed actions against the DZs that are a intrigal part of our small group going to benifit our future? It is like cutting off your nose in spite of your face, this action is a negative against the core of the sport we say we as customers are concerned with.
Any outside faction that may view this thread would most certainly think that we will not even support our own let alone could we be trusted to take responsibility for them as potential customers.
When did it become a huge concern of experienced jumpers how potential students or the public were treated when they made a dicision to make a purchase or pursue the sport? I will tell you when! When the DZO said "I am going to need to greatly increase lift ticket prices because our student business is down an we need more money to meet the cost of the turbine"
This comes from the same persons whom think a proposed boycott of the existing DZs that many of them have jumped at is a solution to the situation? Kind of like burning down your house to get rid of mice?
I can name you many DZ web sites, that by their Photos advertisment would lead you to believe that they have multiple turbines, huge facilities, bunk houses with showers, Plasma TVs, Best most experienced instructors in the US, ETC and when you get there they have a dirty hanger, a trashed trailer, and are leasing someone elses discarded aircraft. It this not the same lies you are fighting with skyride? How do we justify the lie if it benifits us? But is unexceptable if told by someone else?
We cannot complain about the conditions of others practises until we become responsible and ethical about our own!
You are pursuing a battle with skyride and these DZs, I am looking at the cause and how to win the WAR!

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Skyride will eventually get nailed. Until then the rest of us need to keep supporting the DZ's that don't accept their tickets.
“Last week I helped my friend stay put. It's a lot easier than helping someone move. I just went over to his house and made sure that he did not start to load his shit into a truck.”

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