Can Vector reserves count as chest packs?

[wildjump 0]

I've been told by several riggers including two master riggers, that a Vector can be counted as a chest pack in your log book. I have also been told by two other master riggers that this is not true. Supposedly, the story goes, this is because when the piggy back rig came out, there was no back rating. The early RWS Wonderhog requirement was a chest rating to pack it. Therefore it could be counted as a a chest or back. Since the Wonderhog TSO is still used, you can count the pack job as either a chest or back. Was this ever true? Is it still true? Can you count Vectors/Wonderhogs as chest packs and them apply this to a second rating?

[teason 0]

Sounds more like the Racer story. The Racer reserve was also very similar to the Strong Pop Top chest reserve. There was a time when Racers could go either way but I believe it is not so anymore.

I don't know if Vectors shared that chest distinction but if it did, I'm sure you can't count it as a chest pack now.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[mark 102]

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Supposedly, the story goes, this is because when the piggy back rig came out, there was no back rating.

So this whole chest-back-seat-lap thing started after Wonderhogs came out?

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The early RWS Wonderhog requirement was a chest rating to pack it.

My copy of the 1977 Wonderhog manual doesn't say what rating is required to pack the reserve, unlike Jump Shack instructions of the same period which specifically stated that the reserve could be packed by someone with either a chest or back rating. I know there must be earlier Wonderhog instructions, since mine show a curved main closing pin, so perhaps the chest-pack master riggers can cite some reference.

Mark

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi wildjump,

Here's my old $0.02 worth.

The first piggyback came out in early '64, the CrossBow by Security Parachute Co. The reserve container was essentially (I hate that word) a copy of a chest pack container mounted onto the back with a main container attached below it.

Some FAA-types decided that since it was a 'copy' of a chest pack that it should be listed as a chest pack when being packed. I strongly disagree with this. A back parachute is mounted on the back, regardless of it's configuration.

Now for my other $0.02 worth: I think that the idea of a chest/back/seat/etc rating is nuts. You can either assemble/pack a parachute or you cannot.

Just another reason why the feds should not be regulating parachutes.

OK, down off of the soap box,

Jerry

[diablopilot 2]

I seriously doubt it, and remember if you're trying to add up packjobs for a master rigger rating, those "chests" have to be done under the appropriate suprevision as well.....you can't go back and re-classify old pack jobs.

A back is a back.....if you want the chest or seat rating, you really ought to do the work to get it, meaning pack those types, not using a "technicality"

I believe the Racer is no longer legal to pack as a Chest, and I would assume if there was a time you could do the same with the Vector/Wonderhog, it passed long ago.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[CrazyL 0]

Hey Jerry,I enjoyed reading your 2cents worth. getting a little carried away up there on that soap box!! Easy now, breath in slowly, etc... You got carried away when you mentioned back/seat/chest/nuts. I think they should add a 'nuts' rating and remove lap. I know of many people who deal with parachutes that could qualify as 'Master Nuts'. Anyway, i'm a Back/Seat rated Master Rigger. Having learned the many different types of Seat rigs out there, i'd rather the requirements for the rating require more packs with more than 7 different makes and models. They are not like back types. Hell nowadays there should be a rating for rounds and a seperate for squares. Remember when most all canopies were attached to risers with a Rapide link, and to assemble the reserve canopy to the risers a rigger was required to be a Master Rigger? How many different types of connector links are there nowadays? So many combinations of gear . On another note, just the other day I grounded a rig that had been jumped since 1996 because the harness was constructed improperly at the 4 pt under the mud flap.The rig had been inspected and packed 17 times. The manufacturer had it there and back within the week.Glad I learned from some of the old old farts. Thanks for your 2 cents , Larry

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi Larry,

Re: 'getting a little carried away up there on that soap box'

Probably, you ever been to Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park? Lot's of fun.

Re: 'because the harness was constructed improperly'

Back in about '93 or so, I visited the largest rig maker and got to talking with the president (a great guy that I hit it off with right away) and I asked him what was the biggest mistake that they ever made was. He said that they had a rig returned, after having been assembled & repacked by four different riggers (#'s 2-4 were repack only) when it was discovered that all four loops on the reserve risers had never been sewn. They only were being held together by the hot glue used to tack them together.

Jerry

[riggerrob 558]

Was that an Eclipse?

[riggerrob 558]

In the beginning, Vectors and Racers could be counted as "chest" reserves.

When (mid-1970s) Vector and Racer were introduced, few sport riggers held "back" type ratings, however, they all held "chest" ratings. And since the first SST Racers were only slightly modified versions of (Dan Poynter/Strong Enterprises) Pop-Top chest container, it made sense to allow "chest" riggers to pack them.

However, over the years, there have been so many dozen "minor changes" that current production Racers and Vectors share no common parts with the original designs.

Circa 2000, the FAA told Jump Shack (Racer) and Relative Workshop (Vector) to modify their manuals to state that only "back" rated riggers could pack them.

[riggerrob 558]

Now for my other $0.02 worth: I think that the idea of a chest/back/seat/etc rating is nuts. You can either assemble/pack a parachute or you cannot.

Just another reason why the feds should not be regulating parachutes.

OK, down off of the soap box,

Jerry

[mjosparky 3]

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I think that the idea of a chest/back/seat/etc rating is nuts. You can either assemble/pack a parachute or you cannot.

Thats why they print manuals, if you can read, and you have to to get a riggers lic., you can pack any canopy/container combination that is approved.

Lap rigs were only made for a short time during the 30's I believe. And it has been way over 20 years since a Lap rating was issued.

If given the choice of chest or seat, I think it would be better to go for seat. Not many uses for a seat outside of military applications.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggermick 6]

Hell nowadays there should be a rating for rounds and a seperate for squares.



Many moons ago this was just the case see attachment. God look at the date on it I feeling older just looking at it.


Mick.

[billbooth 10]

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I've been told by several riggers including two master riggers, that a Vector can be counted as a chest pack in your log book. I have also been told by two other master riggers that this is not true. Supposedly, the story goes, this is because when the piggy back rig came out, there was no back rating. The early RWS Wonderhog requirement was a chest rating to pack it. Therefore it could be counted as a a chest or back. Since the Wonderhog TSO is still used, you can count the pack job as either a chest or back. Was this ever true? Is it still true? Can you count Vectors/Wonderhogs as chest packs and them apply this to a second rating?

Actually, the original Wonderhog reserve container was the first new reserve container designed exclusively as a "back mounted" reserve container, and was the only reserve container of the time which had never been used as a "front mounted" reserve. Nonetheless, the FAA (in their infinite wisdom) did actually state, for a while, that you could pack it with either a back or front reserve rating. This aberration has long since past however, and a back rating is now required.

[mjosparky 3]

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Hell nowadays there should be a rating for rounds and a seperate for squares.



Many moons ago this was just the case see attachment. God look at the date on it I feeling older just looking at it.


Mick.

You gotta love the issuing authority.

And yes, you are old.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals