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Ugali

Freefly on a Vector II

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I'll be honest with you Gary, it's a tough subject for me to put into text properly.

It's not quite as simple as you stated.

Out of experience and mechanical reasoning, a person can figure out what causes a tight appearing rig to open. What is tight? Many rigs well stay closed in a static position but change orientations often and they won't stay closed. (Over under moves, cartwheels, layouts, head down spins, barrel rolls... etc.) Many just come open if you present the bottom of the rig to the air long enough as in Dolphs example. I have seen this time and again, 10 years ago. It hasn't fixed itself since then.

This next part is simple.
Stowing parts properly is one thing but if it's stored properly in a rig with inherent failure modes built into it, it will still fail during certain orientations.

Example, I had a very tight rig, but when performing either fast layouts or fast barrel rolls, one riser cover would open. I figured out the failure mode on that rig and it wasn't obvious. But I could make it happen nearly every time. It held fine just flying in a head down position and many other moves, but head down is just that, a position. It's not freeflying.

Vector IIs (and not limited to Vector IIs) have inherent failure modes built right into them. Flaps that open is a failure in this sense. It's not structural, it's functional. I would fly a Vector II any day doing any form of belly flying but most definitely would not freefly with it.

Bottom line, the rig is not freefly friendly and the subject should not need to be disected.

Hope that helps.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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I'll be honest with you Gary, it's a tough subject for me to put into text properly.



That's quite all right, a lot of things are. Thanks for the time you are spending to explain it with only text.

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Bottom line, the rig is not freefly friendly...



Well, I'll need to bother you for at least one more post, and some of this is questions for anyone reading this exchange.

To you:
What is different about "3-D" skydives compared to other skydives that present wind to the rig in all different directions?

To all:
What is "freefly friendly"? Guaranteed to not have any flap or cover be misplaced under any conditions? Is that possible? Is that what we expect from the manufacturers?

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Freeflying/3D flying.. perhaps 3D is not appropriatte unless you wake up 5 minutes before posting ;)

Basically what I mean is, head down is just a position. Sit flying is just a position. Freeflying is a lot more than just getting head down and being in the air either by yourself or some where near another person.

Freeflying incorporates all orientations including flips spins, carving, over unders, stand ups, back flying, belly flying ... etc.

I would trust a lot of rigs to a simple position, but once you start performing cartwheels, flips, carving, over under type moves and the rig must be able to stay shut.

Shear strength on Velcro is pretty high, peel strength is low. If that was not the case, it wouldn't be used for cutaway and reseve handles. The riser covers on a Vector 2 are quite long so it's easy for air to get under to peel them open. Since they are long, lots of the riser can be exposed including the entire toggle.

Another prime example is my old team mate (before we were team mates) jumped a perfectly maintained Vector II. On a few dives he was in a stand up video taping my other team mate and both of his toggles were trailing a couple feet above him.

It made for an exciting opening. If it was only 1 toggle, it would have most certainly been quite the spinner.

After a few more jumps, he bought a different rig.

Freefly Friendly:

Until you pull
- Riser covers stay shut
- Main cover flap stays shut
- Reserve cover flap stays shut
- Pilot chute stays secure

That all needs to happen no matter how you fly and it can't be a question of whether it will stay shut, you must know it will. I know mine will unless it's opened by me or someone else.

Hope that helps
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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Freeflying/3D flying.. perhaps 3D is not appropriatte unless you wake up 5 minutes before posting ;)



Understood, thanks.


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Another prime example is my old team mate (before we were team mates) jumped a perfectly maintained Vector II. On a few dives he was in a stand up video taping my other team mate and both of his toggles were trailing a couple feet above him.



If you're not tired of the questions yet: What kind of toggles were those?

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Stock RWS velcro toggles. That was too long ago to remember the exact configuration. The only thing I'm sure of is the condition of the equipment at the time.

So you understand, that was not an isolated incident.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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May I be please ask (not directed at hookitt specifically but anyone that can answer really) :

You have a rig that is not freefly friendly (like say the Vector II without mods) but is deemed fine for belly flying. You don't actually intend to freefly just yet so it suits your purpose. Sometimes though, on exit, you tumble out of the plane. When you are tumbling (maybe a flip or 2, just for 10 seconds or so) you are not in a belly down position. Is this equivalent to involuntary freeflying? In this instance, does the non-freefly friendly rig pose a danger? Or does it only pose a danger when you are freeflying specifically? Why?

Thanks!

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Keep the velcro in good condition, make absolutely certain the BOC will hold the pilot chute in place. Personally, I suggest adding the bridle cover no matter what orientation you fly in.

A tumble here and there is usually no concern for alarm so just enjoy it while you have it.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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As "freeflying" evolved, it became obvious to me that harness and container systems had to change to accommodate it. That is why we designed the Vector III, as the first freefly friendly rig. Secondary riser covers, pocketed corners for main bridle protection, tuck-up main pin protector flaps, and tuck-under reserve pin protector flaps, all made their debut on the Vector III. While the Vector II was a great rig for what it was designed to do, if you want to do the latest and greatest stuff in the air, you really need the latest and greatest gear on your back.

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I had an enlightening conversation with Tamara Koyn this evening about "freefly-friendly" rigs.

Tamara was doing freestyle from the beginning and when she got into it seriously and at the point where she was using nearly every possible orientation with the relative wind she was first using a Vector 1.

Later she got a Vector 2 with a bottom-of-container pilot chute pouch.

She is meticulous about maintenance, and as a result never had any Velcro flaps give her trouble that she recalled.

She even had a rear-of-leg pilot chute pouch with Velcro on the bridle running down to the pouch, yet experienced no problems.

As we talked I started to remember some of the mods she had me and some others do to her rigs.

The one issue she did have was flaps coming open, but new Velcro on the reserve flap fixed that, and for the main, the "tongue" did not hold the main flap closed well enough until a heavy elastic assembly was put on the underneath side of the top flap for the tongue to fit into. This worked very well. (Someone else figured out this design.)

Another mode she had me do was to put metal snaps on the toggles to supplement the Velcro, much like Tandem toggles have.

Hope these ideas give some riggers ideas on how to make some of these rigs more secure.

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I've jumped with Tammy a few times. Ask her what her old Clone number is. She’ll get a kick out of that. I remember that rig well. I've put the same mod on other rigs.

You're very hard set on convincing people that it's a good safe freefly rig. She has a tiny rig and it's pretty secure but I'll just bet you that her riser covers have come open more than she thinks. Snaps make toggles stick to flailing risers so that's good.

More secure is not a bad thing. I agree with you there.

I agree some mods should be added to some rigs regardless.

I used to jump a ROL too and didn't know any better. I put quite a few jumps on it and didn't die. When I had about 100/150 jumps I found out what a BOC was. I could say that I had an ROL and never had problems. Well, I had 100 jumps, did layouts and stand ups so it must be ok, right?
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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the "tongue" did not hold the main flap closed well enough until a heavy elastic assembly was put on the underneath side of the top flap for the tongue to fit into. This worked very well.



Please explain! What type of elastic etc.


Tom, Tom Tom, Tommy, Tom Love

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You're very hard set on convincing people that it's a good safe freefly rig.



Not quite like that :) It's just that I hate seeing people told, "no, never", when things could be done to make the rig "safer".

For the majority of people who are not meticulous with maintenance and don't understand what they need to secure on a rig, the answer should be "no".

I just want people to have the knowledge they need if they simply can't afford the latest rig, but can talk a rigger that understands this stuff into doing some mods inexpensively.

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Please explain! What type of elastic etc.



I think it was the kind used on older rigs to hold a metal ripcord handle (like a Martin baker style). It had binding tape on the edges.

I can't really describe it well, but like this on the under side of the botton flap.




\ |----| / vertical bars = binding tape
\ |____| / part from hyphens to underscore=elastic
---------

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I know this is an old thread, but I'll chime in.

On my Vector II, the previous owner had a "pocket" added underneath one of the flaps, and that's where I tuck the main closing tab into. It's in their pretty snug, and the few times when I've tried to sitfly, it didn't come out (I asked a fellow jumper to keep an eye on it.) However, when I didn't tuck it into that pocket, the flap came out even in a belly-to-earth position.

That still doesn't make it freefly safe probably...does it? [:/]

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On my Vector II, the previous owner had a "pocket" added underneath one of the flaps, and that's where I tuck the main closing tab into. It's in their pretty snug, and the few times when I've tried to sitfly, it didn't come out ...That still doesn't make it freefly safe friendly probably...does it? [:/]



Not by a reasonable definition of that term. But it helps. The risers and toggles are a major part of that term, as is the pilot chute pouch. It needs all of those.

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On my Vector II, the previous owner had a "pocket" added underneath one of the flaps, and that's where I tuck the main closing tab into. It's in their pretty snug, and the few times when I've tried to sitfly, it didn't come out ...That still doesn't make it freefly safe friendly probably...does it? [:/]



Not by a reasonable definition of that term. But it helps. The risers and toggles are a major part of that term, as is the pilot chute pouch. It needs all of those.


Yea, I can see that the risers are still an issue, esp. with the velcro I have (which is due to be replaced soon.) The only bridle that's showing is a little bit that comes right out of the pouch then immediately tucks in under the left flap. Maybe about 2-3 inches of bridle showing. Which is still enough of a snag potential...:|

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Please be careful man! I have a friend that will never walk again due to a pilot cute coming out in a sit fly! And he jumped a FF friendly rig! Crap happens and you dont need to be adding any links to that chain ;).........But then again i have another friend that still jumps a V2 sitflying....[:/]:|Just if gonna so it REPLACE THAT VELCRO WAY BEFORE YOU THINK IT MAY NEED IT!:)

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

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Please be careful man! I have a friend that will never walk again due to a pilot cute coming out in a sit fly! And he jumped a FF friendly rig! Crap happens and you dont need to be adding any links to that chain ;).........But then again i have another friend that still jumps a V2 sitflying....[:/]:|Just if gonna so it REPLACE THAT VELCRO WAY BEFORE YOU THINK IT MAY NEED IT!:)



Thanks John...I do appreciate the warning. :)

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Asking another jumper to 'keep an eye on it' in freefall will be b*gger all use if you have a premmie while in a sit that cracks your spine.
What everyone is saying basically, is, the Vector 2 is not suitable for FF. make of that what you will but you cannot be sure you wont also take out someone else in your group...

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Asking another jumper to 'keep an eye on it' in freefall will be b*gger all use if you have a premmie while in a sit that cracks your spine.
What everyone is saying basically, is, the Vector 2 is not suitable for FF. make of that what you will but you cannot be sure you wont also take out someone else in your group...



What's wrong with having an experienced jumper fly a few feet away if I try to sit and keep an eye on my flap?

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What's wrong with having an experienced jumper fly a few feet away if I try to sit and keep an eye on my flap?



What could that other jumper do for you? Tell you to pull? Go to your belly? Now you're either pulling high in the middle of the load or screwing up the freefall drift separation between groups.

The premature openings I've seen on gear being used for non-belly to earth jumps that shouldn't have been were sudden and very violent! You're risking permanent neck/spin injury. You're also risking blowing lines or your canopy apart. You're risking damaging your rig. If another jumper was FFing with you and had a dock on you when you have a preemie, it could kill or seriously injure both of you.

Its a big deal. I didn't believe it when I had your experience either, I FF a Vector2. I made the same arguments you're making. It was stupid and I should have listened to experienced jumpers!
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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What's wrong with having an experienced jumper fly a few feet away if I try to sit and keep an eye on my flap?



What could that other jumper do for you? Tell you to pull? Go to your belly? Now you're either pulling high in the middle of the load or screwing up the freefall drift separation between groups.

The premature openings I've seen on gear being used for non-belly to earth jumps that shouldn't have been were sudden and very violent! You're risking permanent neck/spin injury. You're also risking blowing lines or your canopy apart. You're risking damaging your rig. If another jumper was FFing with you and had a dock on you when you have a preemie, it could kill or seriously injure both of you.

Its a big deal. I didn't believe it when I had your experience either, I FF a Vector2. I made the same arguments you're making. It was stupid and I should have listened to experienced jumpers!



That's the thing. I AM listening, and the most I've done was try a sit on my own when doing a solo.

The other jumper could tell me if the flap opens up in FF...simple as that.

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You'll find that while your rig isn't FF friendly, this would be a perfect opportunity in your jumping career to really learn how to fly RW. Then, once you progress and end up buying another, more FF friendly, rig, the transition to FF will be easier due to having more freefall body awareness.

Even doing solos is setting yourself up to get really hurt.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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That's the thing. I AM listening, and the most I've done was try a sit on my own when doing a solo.


The other jumper could tell me if the flap opens up in FF...simple as that.



Having a flap open isn't the big concern, so having someone "tell" you that one opens is not helpful. The concern is that your main or reserve will open, and by the time that happens you may find yourself with a broken neck, or even back in freefall when your harness fails.

Freeflying in an older rig is simply very poor judgment. The risks of gear failure are very real.

Of course you are free to make your own judgments, since you are a licensed skydiver, but I would ask one thing: When you talk to your mother about Skydiving, don't tell her that you're doing it safely. If you said such a thing, you'd be lieing to your Mom, and that's just not right. You should be honest to your mom and tell her that you're jumping old, out of date gear, and putting yourself at risk by using it inappropriately. I imagine this might be an interesting conversation.

_Am
__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

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I appreciate the honest and straightforward feedback from everyone. The point about perfecting my bellyflying is a great one, and ive thought along these lines as well. I guess I just really want to get into freeflying...and there's a jumper at out dz who owns a vectorII rig in slightly better condition (better Velcro and a bridle cover so that there's no exposure) and he does nothing but freeflying.

B

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