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helxen

Tertiary Canopy Deployment Question

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Someday down the road I would really like to have a few intentional cutaways.

Let's figure I have a tertiary canopy setup in the form of a harness worn under my regular skydiving rig. I would like to learn of a method whereby I can _safely_ deploy my tertiary canopy without assistance. How would it have to be packed? Where would it be held?

In setups like these, do you normally route your tert-canopy risers on the inner side of your regular risers, or on the outer?

I do not plan to try any advice posted on here without extensive discussion, the DZO's approval and proper training first; but I would like to build some knowledge base upon which to ask questions to local folks.

Thanks!

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The extra harnass I jumped with twice has a round belly reserve.

You need to manually deploy the round, the old fashioned way, no pilot chute. You need to deploy this canopy into clean air.

You cannot get rid of your reserve in case it malfunctions so now you have 2 canopies, one malfunctioning square attached to your shoulders and one hopefully okay round attached to your belly.
Good luck.

It's never SAFE.

Also because of the round I had to change my emergence procedures from 2 hands on each handle to one on each since I couldn't reach round the damn thing. An added complication.

There should be better setups than this one but I doubt anyone could ever call a 3 canopy setup "safe". You're better off demoing a reserve setup as a main, in most cases, IMO. My particular reserve doesn't come as a demo or with a pilotchute attachment point and had opened iffy when I needed it once so I jumped it on purpose. It was fun, but I was mighty glad I didn't have to deploy that round as I never have jumped a round before either.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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If you rent the intentional cutaway rig from JumpShack (I've jumped it a few times) you can cutaway a malfunctioning reserve, and the tertiary is a belly mounted round. You still have to deploy it into clean air... luckily I've never had to.......
Pete Draper,

Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right?

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Most harnesses - for chest-mounted reserves - suspend the container just below the chest strap, so the reserve risers route inboard of the MLWs and below the chest strap.
After the reserve opens, you lean back a bit, because your risers are not attached to your shoulders.

However, that is all academic because wearing two harnesses is awkward, bordering on dangerous.

You would be far safer to rent a purpose-built, intentional cutaway rig from Jump Shack.

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in reply to "I do not plan to try any advice posted on here without extensive discussion, the DZO's approval and proper training first; but I would like to build some knowledge base upon which to ask questions to local folks."
.....................................

Some CRW rigs have provision for connecting a tertiary.
The simplest have harness loops integrated in the front lift webs plus side connector rings .

You can't cut-away your reserve with these set-ups as the rig is otherwise standard.
The tert's are small rounds usually hand deployed.
A friendly CRWdog may be able to provide you with such a rig for your ocassional intentional.

If you want to do many an intentional it may be possible to have a container/harness specially made with the necessary extra connection points for the chest mount tert.

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Trae,

Why do all the setups mentioned here seem to imply that after an intentional cutaway you have to use the actual reserve? That means unnecessary wear, risk of freebag loss, repack costs.

I would think that a far more economical setup would be to cutaway your intentional canopy and deploy your usual canopy; in case of a malfunction, cutaway and go to your last canopy out of the three (aka reserve).

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in reply to "Why do all the setups mentioned here seem to imply that after an intentional cutaway you have to use the actual reserve? "
......................................


I'm supposing it's mainly about defined purpose , simplicity of equipment and ease of use.


Often the purpose is to test the gear (cutaway /reserve) or test your own ability to perform emergency procedures in a realistic environment.
For this last purpose it's better that you use the gear in the sequence that it will be used in a real emergency situation.

Many people who do intentionals have never had a malfunction and want to see what a cutaway feels like and how they will perform.
In this case the tert becomes the real reserve. One you really wouldn't like to use if you could help it.

To cutaway the intentional canopy and then fall back on your usual set-up would require an extra cutaway system on the intentional..and perhaps most likely a second harness .
A friend of mine had a trick where he had a canopy in a garbage bag with a cutaway from a chest mount set-up. He'd give himself streamers and lines overs on old canopies knowing he could cut these away and use his usual rig in the normal order.
Not many people felt like copying this guy.

By cutting away the main and deploying the "reserve" you get to truly test your usual system. Sure it's going to add wear to the equation but this is not something that you'll be doing everyday...most likely.

As to losing the extras like freebags....you do this stuff at a relatively low altitude (still legal of course ) and hopefully you've spotted good enough so you don't lose your gear.

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I see... Helx and I, we are about to get ahold of a cheap, small canopy that we'd like to fly but not land (personally I want to feel what flying a canopy at 2.1 feels like without having to hone my skills for 1000+ jumps to land it).

And I feel like copying that guy, too.

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Arright..didn't seem to hurt him and he always had a huge smile on his dial.

If you use the chest mount option I think you may have some issues with the attachment points being different from top of shoulder but that might not worry you too much ... you'd just hang in the harness a bit different.

From memory he had the cutaway made up so he didn't need a second harness. Some of the older rigs were easy to set up with removable shackles for chest mounting reserves.

A friendly adventurous rigger may be able to adapt something for you.or you could cut down an old rig and use it as a second harness.
For your purposes I agree a cutaway on the intentional would be better.;)
I seem to remember his favourite being to shake the shyte out of a bag lock. I don't ever remember him being bored .

Have fun ......you might start a trend.
:)

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G'day katzurki,

you and helx may be interested in the following from general skydiving discussions by' riggerrob'
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Doing intentional cutaways without a third canopy is dangerous, bordering on STUPID! Especially when you consider how many different ways there are to attach a third canopy to your existing harness.

Most old-school jumpers just clip on an old chest-mounted reserve when doing intentional cutaways. If they cannot sew extra D-rings on their existing harness ,some of them even wear a second harness under their regular harness. The configuration is bulky and awkward, but it is legal.
They look like they are pregnant or "shop-lifting water melons", but at least they are being cautious.
I suppose you could design a low-profile chest-mounted reserve. It would not be certified (i.e. TSOed) but at least you would conform with the intent of the law.

However there are several ways to rig extra canopies that are not apparent to all but the sharpest observer.

1. Attach two sets of (mini) main risers to regular-sized 3-rings. "Shopping bag" deploy, static-line, buddy deploy, etc. the first/test main canopy. The extra main d-bag does not even have to be attached to your harness. Just hold it in your hands and toss it as you fall away from the airplane. When you get bored with the test canopy, cut it away then deploy your regular main canopy from your regular main container.

2. Sew or zipper an extra main container below your regular main container. This looks like the "BOC from hell." Deploy that with a left-handed, throw-out pilot chute. Cut it away when you get bored (cue evil laughter), then deploy your regular main with a pilot chute mounted on your right hip.

3. Start with the largest student container you can find. Sew in a second pack tray - half the thickness of the main container. Pack your regular main and secure it with the extra flap. Stuff your regular main pilot chute in the regular BOC. Pack the second/test/junk canopy into a second d-bag and stuff its pilot chute into a left-hand BOC. Deploy the first/test/junk canopy first and when you tire of it, cut it away and you are back to deploying your regular main in the regular manner.
I built a pair of these (much modified Telesis F18 containers) for the Canadian Army Team - a decade ago - so they could do intentional cutaways at airshows.

Note: the smoothest way to rig risers - for intentional cutaways - is to sew an extra set of RW-1 or RW-8 harness rings onto your main risers, so that you can cutaway both main canopies with one pull on a red handle.

++++++++++++++

hope you'll be taking pictures when you try this.
B|

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Note: the smoothest way to rig risers - for intentional cutaways - is to sew an extra set of RW-1 or RW-8 harness rings onto your main risers, so that you can cutaway both main canopies with one pull on a red handle.



If you have two sets of risers that are connected together and you deploy one canopy and the other is still locked in a container, how can you cut away both (or either) of them with a single handle? I have considered this design and I have not come across a simple configuration that would do this. (I have thought of some complex configurations that might, but I don't want to start changing things like cutaway cable lengths on my 3-ring setup.)

That's why I'm looking at going with option 1, give or take. (Two sets of mini-risers connected on a set of regular-size harness rings, and an extra set of cutaway cables.)

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

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in reply to "Note: the smoothest way to rig risers - for intentional cutaways - is to sew an extra set of RW-1 or RW-8 harness rings onto your main risers, so that you can cutaway both main canopies with one pull on a red handle.

............
If you have two sets of risers that are connected together and you deploy one canopy and the other is still locked in a container, how can you cut away both (or either) of them with a single handle?"
...........................................................................


Perhaps the author of the statement can help us out?? Riggerrob???

I'm agreeing that your decision to go with option 1 is much more straight forward if you just want to C/A the intentional and fall back on the more normal setup.

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G'day katzurki,
Note: the smoothest way to rig risers - for intentional cutaways - is to sew an extra set of RW-1 or RW-8 harness rings onto your main risers, so that you can cutaway both main canopies with one pull on a red handle.



For the record, I would say that ALL extra equipment and procedures have their added risks... including my own 3-rig system which I jump on a semi-regular basis.

I have considered (and may yet use) the method you describe. However for the sake of discussion, it should be mentioned that a similar system and an out-of-sequence cut-a-way was the route cause of a jumper's death a few years ago. (will dig it up if I can find it)

Review discovered that he had deployed the junk main, then pulled by mistake the ACTUAL main cut-away. This caused the junk main to load on the still packed main pin. (riser to riser still linked) Bad situation never got better.

Be carefull out there and consider that the jumper is also a weak link in this.

Jim

(BTW - intentionals... best jumps I make... and they scare me sh~tless everytime!! ;) )
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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However for the sake of discussion, it should be mentioned that a similar system and an out-of-sequence cut-a-way was the route cause of a jumper's death a few years ago. (will dig it up if I can find it)

Review discovered that he had deployed the junk main, then pulled by mistake the ACTUAL main cut-away. This caused the junk main to load on the still packed main pin. (riser to riser still linked)



Rob Harris?

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However for the sake of discussion, it should be mentioned that a similar system and an out-of-sequence cut-a-way was the route cause of a jumper's death a few years ago. (will dig it up if I can find it)

Review discovered that he had deployed the junk main, then pulled by mistake the ACTUAL main cut-away. This caused the junk main to load on the still packed main pin. (riser to riser still linked)



Rob Harris?



Don't remember... did not know the person, but remember the equipment issue well as it was right around the time I was designing my own system. Since then I have revisited the method, and I think there is a way to make it more fail-safe. (modeled on how Strong keeps the TM from cutting away a main without releasing the drogue.)

May we collectively not need to learn from mistakes twice.

J~
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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However for the sake of discussion, it should be mentioned that a similar system and an out-of-sequence cut-a-way was the route cause of a jumper's death a few years ago. (will dig it up if I can find it)

Review discovered that he had deployed the junk main, then pulled by mistake the ACTUAL main cut-away. This caused the junk main to load on the still packed main pin. (riser to riser still linked)



Rob Harris?




Yup Rob Harris. He was being filmed doing a Mountain Dew commercial. He had a double cut away rig and pulled his handles out of sequence. As a result he was unable to jettison the mess and had to fire his reserve in to it resulting in an entanglement and unfortunatly his death.

RIP. Rob.


Mick.

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Someday down the road I would really like to have a few intentional cutaways.

Let's figure I have a tertiary canopy setup in the form of a harness worn under my regular skydiving rig. I would like to learn of a method whereby I can _safely_ deploy my tertiary canopy without assistance. How would it have to be packed? Where would it be held?

In setups like these, do you normally route your tert-canopy risers on the inner side of your regular risers, or on the outer?

I do not plan to try any advice posted on here without extensive discussion, the DZO's approval and proper training first; but I would like to build some knowledge base upon which to ask questions to local folks.

Thanks!




Having read the resposes, some seem good and some not so. The setup which we used on the Reflex drop testing program was easy to install/ remove and can be applied to almost any rig. We used The seperable RW 1 rings for the attacment point on the harness. This acomplished by installing them pointing down toward the ground, placing the bar through the same webbing loop as the regular three ring base ring. This arrangment gives the user attachment points that are not assoiated with the harness/ containers release system and are suffiecently high enough on the wearer to keep them mostly feet to earth.

The "tersh" system that we used was one of my own design utilizing certified round reserves (Phantom 24's and KXX's) free bag deployed. I designed and built a special "gravity" deployed free bag (no pilot chute) that was based on an earlier design that I helped refine for the para gliding industry. the deployments on this system are quick and clean and the user can throw throw the bagged canopy in any direction he/ she chooses.

I reccomend for your application the use of a round reserve in a military or sport chest mount container with the pilot chute removed. The attachment point on the harness is a no brainer for a certified rigger.

Mick.

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