tumbleroll 0 #1 January 30, 2010 Scenario: Your right shoulder is badly dislocated during freefall, either as a result of an exit mishap or due to an impact with another jumper. Your right arm is completely useless, and can't be lifted or used, even a little bit. I'm interested to know how people would respond to this situation - how they would deploy, steer and perform the landing. I'm also very interested to knowing if anyone has heard about this happening before? ~ Tumbleroll Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
c10edges 0 #2 January 30, 2010 Deploy: Pull silver. After Opening: Use left arm to use breaks and put both toggles in one hand to flare. Yes, its happened before. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #3 January 30, 2010 QuoteScenario: Your right shoulder is badly dislocated during freefall, either as a result of an exit mishap or due to an impact with another jumper. Your right arm is completely useless, and can't be lifted or used, even a little bit. I'm interested to know how people would respond to this situation - how they would deploy, steer and perform the landing. I'm also very interested to knowing if anyone has heard about this happening before? ~ Tumbleroll Given the scenario presented, it appears a good solution would be to use your left hand to deply the reserve, followed by a left pattern under cnapoy and hopefully a single-handed, two-toggle flare, and a PLF to the uninjured side.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #4 January 30, 2010 QuoteDeploy: Pull silver. After Opening: Use left arm to use breaks and put both toggles in one hand to flare. Yes, its happened before. I have dislocated my left shoulder on two occasions in freefall and can vouch for the both toggles in one hand landing technique - it is definitely what I would do again. I also agree that if it's your pull arm, then going straight to silver is about all you have left because you are not going to be able to reach a BOC or pull out deployment system."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monkycndo 0 #5 January 30, 2010 We discussed this on the DZ after the beer light was on. The consensus was this. Agreed, go silver. If you have both toggles in one hand, to turn left, you have to actually pull extra to the right. And vice versa to go right. This isn't something we normally think about. It's normally Pull left, go left, Pull right, go right. And for us rightys, we will be using our non-dominant hand that might be a bit less coordinated. It is a better idea to leave your brakes stowed, steer with riser input, and while holding your injured arm to keep control of it, PLF like your life depends on it. Trying to steer/flare smoothly one handed is not as easy as one might think. Try it sometime on the canopy you fly every jump. But unless you have practiced using one hand to flare both toggles, on your reserve canopy, while being distracted/disoriented with the pain of the dislocated shoulder, maybe this situation isn't the time to try it out for the first time. YMMV50 donations so far. Give it a try. You know you want to spank it Jump an Infinity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #6 January 30, 2010 I know of an AFF student who had the left shoulder go on level 1. She deployed, unstowed one toggle and held it in her teeth, unstowed the other and then flew with both in one hand. An exceptional student for sure, but doable for most of us IF you keep you wits about you and be prepared to PLF.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jbag 0 #7 January 30, 2010 i was doing a rodeo when this happened to the rider, she got off and deployed her main... if you have the altitude i would say try and work your left arm for your main. its really not that much of a stretch and if you can get a little bit of PC fabric there is no reason not to use it. so you have my answer, try getting your main out, if that doesnt work or you run out of time...pull silver. IMHOIHYD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #8 January 30, 2010 we launched a 4 way with 2 hangars for a hybrid base,, from a CASA...YES it WAS crowded at the door.... One guy had his legstrap catch on some sorta chunk of hardware, on the inside wall of the cabin.. so the base tumbled... i tossed the grips, which i was holding,,, but the person on my right did not...when we both "flipped & flopped" , my shoulder gripper in his left hand,,,, I could feel the right shoulder dislocate...it was the weirdest thing EVER... I could have sworn that i was pressing both my arms, down and out, to recover and "float back up " to where most of the jumpers were.... But when i looked to my right.. my hand and arm were flailing around,,, waaay above my head... It felt like i had THREE arms....cause my brain was telling me that my right hand was DOWN.... yet there it was, waaay over my head "waving at God"At least i had altitude on my side....and in about 5 seconds, i figured out was was happening...I TRIED tiwce to get my hand down near my hackey,, in preparation for my pull.... but could NOT... I am not all that flexible, and i jump a sizable rig,,, so there was NO way.. i could get to the main ,,,, left handed,,,, Not sure that i'd suggest doing that... though for SOME,, it might work... Knew quickly that i'd be pulling my reserve, but resisted doing it immediately.... instead i waited til 3 - five or so.. waved with my left arm, and pulled my reserve with it... the right arm was limp and hanging and it Hurt....( the ball of the humerus was laying against my ribcage..) I did fly a left hand pattern,,, and was grateful that my reserve was a 225... I did NOT have the presence of mind to flare BOTH toggles with my left hand,,,,,,, and instead did a 'semi-flare' with the left, and had a very tolerable ( though less than graceful ) landing.... friends were on me, right away and Tom Spoon drove me to the hospital. My pal, Brian L followed and hung in there with me til i got released... It was july and about 88 degrees,,, and yet,, within 10 minutes,, I was freezing cold,,,, as shock set it....An Angel of an orthopedic doctor,,, in the E R . re-set the arm. She took a bed sheet,, slid one end UNDER my back ( i was laying on my back, on the gurney) and had two nurses hold onto it,,,, wrapped the other end around her own waist,,,, TIED the corner of it to my right wrist,,, and then with the nurses anchoring the sheet,,,she used her arms, and her hips to yank the arm back into place.. I cooperated by "going with the flow" rather than resisting, and together we popped it back in.... WHAT a surge of relief.... it took about 8 weeks, but i was back in the air by september of that same year.... so it SURE does happen.... my suggestions would be,, to maintain altitude awareness and resist the urge to dump the reserve immediately.... doing so, could result in 'blowing away' if it's a breezy day.... and suffering an off field landing,, ON TOP of an injury.. would be a BAD thing... If possible , pull around 3 grand,,, so that you don't risk a collision with others in the group, who may not know that you're hurt and who would NOT be expecting a deployment.... do your absolute best to land ON the DZ and anticipate 'going into shock', and ask to be covered, with a blanket, or a coat, or both.... a good friend got after my freebag immediately, and recovered it near the runway... so, maintain your composure,,, be NOT afraid to deploy the reserve, and as long as you don't feel like you're "blacking out" do it at sensbile altitude...I was cypres-equipped....and was wearing two video cameras and a still... I had NEVER considered such an occurence, and was caught by surprise.... which could be why i did not think to flare both toggles at once..... Discussions such as these,,, could help to prepare others, who could find themselves in such a situation. Good question.. Good discussion jmy A 3914 D 12122 nscr 1817 POPS 3935 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
odeseni 0 #9 January 30, 2010 Another thing to consider is when unstowing your toggles, make sure you go around your risers(from the front) so you can perform full toggle stroke when it's time to flare. If you dont, you will not be able to do so. Hope the way i wrote it, makes sense. Edit: If considering flaring with both toggles in one hand. Best regards Edo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 36 #10 January 30, 2010 Yeah I would pull reserve, use left riser to steer, and PLF with the brakes stowed. My reserves are in the 120-135ish range, and I know how much coordination it takes to steer with both toggles in one hand. Its frigging hard to do well especially when incapacitated! I'm not coordinated enough to pull it off low to the ground... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #11 January 30, 2010 QuoteIts frigging hard to do well especially when incapacitated! As you alluded to in mentioning your canopy sizes, this is yet another reason to keep your reserve in a "shit hits the fan" size rather than "really small so my rig looks cool" size."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wayneflorida 0 #12 January 30, 2010 QuoteQuoteIts frigging hard to do well especially when incapacitated! As you alluded to in mentioning your canopy sizes, this is yet another reason to keep your reserve in a "shit hits the fan" size rather than "really small so my rig looks cool" size. -------------------------------------------------------- Ditto When I bought my rig with a pilot 168 main the salesperson wanted to put a 160 reserve in my rig. I decided to go with next size up (175). Why try to make a possible really difficult situation more difficult. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #13 January 30, 2010 >I'm interested to know how people would respond to this situation . . . In freefall no change. Two attempts (with either your right or left hand) then reserve. If you have a severe canopy size discrepancy (PD143 reserve, Crossfire 99 main) you may want to go for reserve instead of trying for the main. For big canopies I'd leave both toggles stowed and land with no flare; safer that way. Steer by pulling on the risers. PLF on landing. For smaller canopies that cannot be safely landed with brakes stowed, releasing both and steering with one hand can work. If you do this be sure to practice flaring up high, and be prepared to land with less of a flare (i.e. you'll land going faster and have to PLF.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydude2000 3 #14 January 31, 2010 That's happened to one of my instructors, twice, on a jump. Both times pulled reserve with left hand. First time flared with both toggles in one hand, the second, with no flare at all, and a damn good old-school PLF. We were on a 4-way and I knew about it, so I tried to help make sure he was in a good exit position. Turned out it didn't matter. All was good though, he landed safe.PULL!! or DIE!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #15 January 31, 2010 Quotewe launched a 4 way with 2 hangars for a hybrid base,, from a CASA...YES it WAS crowded at the door....was it a big Casa or 2 small hangars ?scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 36 #16 January 31, 2010 I would actually say the opposite. On a big canopy where minor adjustments take a bunch of movement - land with both toggles in one hand. On a small canopy where an inch of toggle can have you turning into the ground - land with stowed and PLF. I've actually done a fair amount of steering up high with both toggles in one hand - and its a challenge! All your instincts are backwards. No way would I do it down low because I am pretty sure I would accidently hook turn myself into the ground. If you have even the slightest history of shoulder injuries - on a few jumps now when you have 2 good shoulders - try to steer with both toggles in one hand (and its very often not your dominant hand) Even better - try to stay close to a buddy flying nearby (not docking or anything but close enough you can recognize what you're doing) and see how preicse your steering is. Every instinct is kind of backwards and certainly me, and I'm certain many others, would find it very challenging on small canopies. If I had a one-handed landing on a small canopy I would never attempt to do two handed cuz its way too hard to do minor corrections without unintentionally flying yourself into the ground. I would in a heartbeat on a big canopy because it takes so much more effort to hurt yourself. I highly recommend trying it up high now with 2 good arms and see what you think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #17 January 31, 2010 For my 190 Tri, I've flown and landed one-handed for practice for just such a problem. The only pucker part was compensating for crosswind push. With my Raven II (211) reserve, I'd do the same.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #18 January 31, 2010 I landed with both toggles in one hand under a Sabre2 150 on jumps 40 and 65 with my last 2 dislocations and can say that I had no problems with steering/flaring. I did practice both turning and flaring up high. Just wanted to illustrate that it is entirely possible even for low-time jumpers to land one-handed."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
broncoty 0 #19 February 1, 2010 I remember seeing a video a while ago here with a skydiver who had dislocated his shoulder and he managed to communicate to his friends with his left hand that it was dislocated and to pull for him. And a buddy pulled his main for him. I am pretty sure it was a RW team. And I think it may have been in Europe. If you had the alti would you try to get a buddy to pull your main for you? Just something to think about.“The mediocre teacher tells. The good teacher explains. The superior teacher demonstrates. The great teacher inspires."-William Arthur Ward Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mircan 0 #20 February 1, 2010 Quote It felt like i had THREE arms....cause my brain was telling me that my right hand was DOWN.... yet there it was, waaay over my head "waving at God" On the serious side, couple of years ago we had a student who somehow managed, after his right shoulder got dislocated, to open main with his left hand (BOC PC). Can`t remember the way he landed though.dudeist skydiver #42 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NealFitz 0 #21 February 1, 2010 Quote I remember seeing a video a while ago here with a skydiver who had dislocated his shoulder and he managed to communicate to his friends with his left hand that it was dislocated and to pull for him. And a buddy pulled his main for him. I am pretty sure it was a RW team. And I think it may have been in Europe. If you had the alti would you try to get a buddy to pull your main for you? Just something to think about. if it was an 8way team i have also seen the said video- the "buddy" was my AFF instructor Kevin Dudeist Skydiver #170 You do not need a parachute to skydive, you only need one to skydive again Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildcard451 0 #22 February 1, 2010 Where's the option for re-locating your shoulder under canopy? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #23 February 1, 2010 Quote Where's the option for re-locating your shoulder under canopy? I have tried that twice (and throughout the whole of freefall once) with out success. Managed to get it back in myself on the ground, but it's not easy under canopy or in freefall."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AllisonH 0 #24 February 1, 2010 Quote Where's the option for re-locating your shoulder under canopy? Had a friend do that on the 10 second delay jump of his S/L progression. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
broncoty 0 #25 February 2, 2010 Quote Quote I remember seeing a video a while ago here with a skydiver who had dislocated his shoulder and he managed to communicate to his friends with his left hand that it was dislocated and to pull for him. And a buddy pulled his main for him. I am pretty sure it was a RW team. And I think it may have been in Europe. If you had the alti would you try to get a buddy to pull your main for you? Just something to think about. if it was an 8way team i have also seen the said video- the "buddy" was my AFF instructor Kevin haha no way you happen to know where the vid is? Im glad everything turned out ok props to your aff instructor for handling it well.“The mediocre teacher tells. The good teacher explains. The superior teacher demonstrates. The great teacher inspires."-William Arthur Ward Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
