Grip/method for full flare?

[emmiwy 0]

Hey everyone,

I just passed my AFF level 3 yesterday, and am finally starting to feel more comfortable with relaxing while flying, and pulling on time :)

So my lvl 3 instructor gave me tips on how to perform the two-stage flare, specifically because we are both women who don't have the upper body strength. I'd like to be able to flare better to improve my landings.

She showed me a method of pulling down in front that was easier but it still gets me sore the next day. Anyone have tips on how to do the full flare more readily? I've seen more experienced divers flare behind them [I assume only because they are more experienced]. And I've been going to the weight room to build upper body strength but it seems not to be working adequately enough; perhaps I'm working the wrong muscles?

Thanks!

[dragon2 0]

At this point, you should only listen to your own instructors, not to random people on the 'net.

However, do NOT flare behind you if you like your wrists to stay un-broken Keep your hands in front of you. Think also about how you'd do a last-second PLF with your hands behind your back
I must admit though I'm finding it kinda hard to believe you're not powerful enough to do a flare, I'm a WIMP and I have no difficulty at all flaring any kind of canopy (except for tandemcanopies). Not being able to frontriser a canopy, sure, but just a flare? On a typical student canopy (with sufficiently long steering lines) you should be able to move your hands from your ears to your crotch in a smooth motion no problem.
If I were you I'd get video of my landings and have your instructor debrief you, you may get technique pointers there, and I'd flare a lot of times in the air too to practice, on every jump. Also, make sure you WANT it, don't give up "I can't" type thing, don't hesitate. I found when I couldn't do something it was mostly just between my ears so to speak, like letting myself getting blown away in the door on a sitting exit, get positive not re-active and just DO it worked for me a treat. But like I said, your instructors should be the ones to help you with this.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[emmiwy 0]

Quote

At this point, you should only listen to your own instructors, not to random people on the 'net.

However, do NOT flare behind you if you like your wrists to stay un-broken Keep your hands in front of you. Think also about how you'd do a last-second PLF with your hands behind your back
I must admit though I'm finding it kinda hard to believe you're not powerful enough to do a flare, I'm a WIMP and I have no difficulty at all flaring any kind of canopy (except for tandemcanopies). Not being able to frontriser a canopy, sure, but just a flare? On a typical student canopy (with sufficiently long steering lines) you should be able to move your hands from your ears to your crotch in a smooth motion no problem.
If I were you I'd get video of my landings and have your instructor debrief you, you may get technique pointers there, and I'd flare a lot of times in the air too to practice, on every jump. Also, make sure you WANT it, don't give up "I can't" type thing, don't hesitate. I found when I couldn't do something it was mostly just between my ears so to speak, like letting myself getting blown away in the door on a sitting exit, get positive not re-active and just DO it worked for me a treat. But like I said, your instructors should be the ones to help you with this.

Yep thanks for the tisp--I wanted to ask here just because I have a week before I talk to my instructor again when I head back to the DZ. :)

I can do the full flare it's just very resistant, I certainly have to put muscle into it. I suppose ideally I'd like to do it without any effort at all.

I like what you said though, hesitance and lack of confidence are two things that don't really help you skydive better. Trust is a big thing I'm only starting to learn to have in myself.

[davelepka 4]

When you say in front, I'm guessing you mean with your hands close to your body, right?

The idea is to pull down on the toggle until they are just above your belly button, then if you point your elbows upwards, you're in position to push down on the toggle to complete the flare. Generally, this gives you more leverage/strength.

Keep in mind that your student canopies have very high toggle pressure due to their size. It will become easier to falre as the canopies get a little smaller. This is especially true if you are a smaller person because everyone jumps the same student rigs. Once your instrucotrs start to downsize your canopies, you'll feel the difference.

Keep hitting the gym, and sooner or later that and the smaller canopies will meet in the middle, and you'll have no problems with your toggle pressure. If your muscles are sore, that means that they're growing, so that's a good thing. DOn't mistake that for pain/injury, but sore muscles are a sign of progress.

[emmiwy 0]

Quote

When you say in front, I'm guessing you mean with your hands close to your body, right?

The idea is to pull down on the toggle until they are just above your belly button, then if you point your elbows upwards, you're in position to push down on the toggle to complete the flare. Generally, this gives you more leverage/strength.

Keep in mind that your student canopies have very high toggle pressure due to their size. It will become easier to falre as the canopies get a little smaller. This is especially true if you are a smaller person because everyone jumps the same student rigs. Once your instrucotrs start to downsize your canopies, you'll feel the difference.

Keep hitting the gym, and sooner or later that and the smaller canopies will meet in the middle, and you'll have no problems with your toggle pressure. If your muscles are sore, that means that they're growing, so that's a good thing. DOn't mistake that for pain/injury, but sore muscles are a sign of progress.

Yep, in front, close to the body. Elbows upwards that's a good way to describe it. I'm trying to isolate where the soreness is right now...it really feels like my entire arm from shoulder to elbow [but that may be more from practicing the positioning in tunnel and arching]. It almost feels like soreness across the chest too.

Thanks!

[AliMac 0]

What size canopy are you flying? I'm a pretty skinny/wimpy chick and when I was flying the 240's and 200's I found it took all the strength I had to flare, I'm on a 170 now and I notice a huge difference with my flare. I was never sore from flaring but with everything your doing (tunnel time and jumping) I could see being sore. Listen to your instructors, they know best.

[davelepka 4]

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I'm trying to isolate where the soreness is right now...it really feels like my entire arm from shoulder to elbow [but that may be more from practicing the positioning in tunnel and arching]. It almost feels like soreness across the chest too.

The more I thought about it, I can't see just the flare making you sore. You only do it three or four times total, and I'm not sure that would do it.

I'm willing to bet that it's everything put together. All the dirt dives, if you're in the tunnel that's a real killer, the jump itself, even carrying the rig back into the packing room can be a chore with a bulky student rig a small student.

Just keep at it. I don't jump much in the winter, so my first weekend in the spring when I do 5 or 10 jumps is a real bitch. I wake up Monday morning feel like I got hit by a truck. By mid season 10 jumps a day is a breeze.

[emmiwy 0]

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What size canopy are you flying? I'm a pretty skinny/wimpy chick and when I was flying the 240's and 200's I found it took all the strength I had to flare, I'm on a 170 now and I notice a huge difference with my flare. Listen to your instructors, they know best.

Certainly. I'll look forward to going smaller but for now I'll work on flaring on a 240 right now. If I can do flare for a canopy this size it'll make the smaller ones feel like a walk in the park. Thanks, it helps to have input from a fellow smaller-sized female jumper. :)

[emmiwy 0]

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The more I thought about it, I can't see just the flare making you sore. You only do it three or four times total, and I'm not sure that would do it.

I'm willing to bet that it's everything put together. All the dirt dives, if you're in the tunnel that's a real killer, the jump itself, even carrying the rig back into the packing room can be a chore with a bulky student rig a small student.

Just keep at it. I don't jump much in the winter, so my first weekend in the spring when I do 5 or 10 jumps is a real bitch. I wake up Monday morning feel like I got hit by a truck. By mid season 10 jumps a day is a breeze.

Yeah I think you're right. I did 15 min of tunnel in the morning and just one jump yesterday, but practiced a lot of the positioning on the ground. My instructor was incredibly insistent and conscientious I get the body positioning right before I go up. I've had several different instructors, she's been for lack of better term the only "hard ass" so far. But a VERY GOOD instructor [which is probably why she's an instructor/examiner] and has gained respect for her reputation at our DZ. :)

[labrys 0]

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Yep, in front, close to the body. Elbows upwards that's a good way to describe it.

If you're getting your elbows up you might already be doing this but I'll try to describe it anyway:

Flaring with your knuckles facing the direction of flight uses a different set of muscles than flaring with your knuckles both pointing inward (right hand turned 90 degrees left and left hand turned 90 degrees right). Nothing else changes. You still keep your arms close to the front of your body to flare and finish with your hands almost touching at full arm extension and ready for a PLF. It's just easier for some people with weaker arm / upper body strength to do it that way.

Run that by your instructor before trying it though.

Owned by Remi #?

[billvon 2,396]

There are two kinds of "two stage flare" and it's important to know the difference.

One is for landing HP canopies. In this case, you level out in the first stage and keep the canopy just an inch above the grass in the second stage. This isn't to help with strength.

The second is for people who have trouble flaring. In this, you bring the toggles down to shoulder height, get your elbows above your hands slightly, then use your arms to push _down_ to finish the flare. Your instructor will tell you what he wants with this, but generally it requires you to do it fairly quickly to get a good flare.

[emmiwy 0]

Quote

There are two kinds of "two stage flare" and it's important to know the difference.

One is for landing HP canopies. In this case, you level out in the first stage and keep the canopy just an inch above the grass in the second stage. This isn't to help with strength.

The second is for people who have trouble flaring. In this, you bring the toggles down to shoulder height, get your elbows above your hands slightly, then use your arms to push _down_ to finish the flare. Your instructor will tell you what he wants with this, but generally it requires you to do it fairly quickly to get a good flare.

Great explanation thanks billvon! Second approach is definitely what I was taught I think I just haven't gotten the push down on the toggles technique completely.

[iopenhi 0]

Quote

There are two kinds of "two stage flare" and it's important to know the difference.

One is for landing HP canopies. In this case, you level out in the first stage and keep the canopy just an inch above the grass in the second stage. This isn't to help with strength.

The second is for people who have trouble flaring. In this, you bring the toggles down to shoulder height, get your elbows above your hands slightly, then use your arms to push _down_ to finish the flare. Your instructor will tell you what he wants with this, but generally it requires you to do it fairly quickly to get a good flare.

I think I understood that...

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken manure.

[MomDaBomb 0]

My chest muscles (below the collarbone) are always sore after I spend time in the wind tunnel. I thought it was just me because I asked a few people and they said it didn't bother them at all.

[jasonRose 0]

Flaring is over rated... Kidding...

My log book entry from AFF3 says to flare sooner and with more power. On that jump I finished my flair after I broke my tail bone. OUCH!!!!

That said, your instructors know you best and are the key to your success by providing you tips on how overcome any potential strength issues. Don't use strength as an excuse not to flare or flare completely or you will end up having a log book entry like mine or worse!!!

It is great that you are asking questions and seeking advice that is sure fire sign that you want to improve in this sport. However what you do with your instructors advice may determine how long you stay in the sport i.e. listen to your instructors and check with them before trying stuff you learn from DZ.com.

Keep up the hard work, AFF is hard and instructor may seem grueling or harsh but understand they have the same goal as you... For you to be a safe skydiver that stays in the sport for years to come..

Hope to see you in the sky with the A card in hand.
Rosie

Some day I will have the best staff in the world!!!

[erdnarob 1]

As a female you generally have less strength in the arms and shoulders as you said but your weight is also less than a man (generally). OTOH males are used to do more sports or physical activities. Therefore get an elastic tubing with handles in a sport shop, attach it to a hook high enough and practice pulling the two handles down just like you would do when flaring a parachute. Make sure to have a good resistance.
Also, when you will buy a parachute, make sure to get one with the suspended weight more directed forward. That makes the pressure toggles lighter. This is the case for the Pulse from Performance Designs. I jumped it and could almost fly it with my little fingers.
Note: soon or later you should have enough strength in your arms to support the weight of your body when flaring. If you do so, you will have super soft landing by pulling the toggle at maximum arm length. Later on, tell us how you are doing with this issue. Practice and more practice...

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[emmiwy 0]

jasonrose: Thanks for the encouragement! I haven't been able to jump so much the last two weekends because of weather holds, but yeah I'm hoping practice and more jumping will help me get accustomed to extending arms all the way for a full flare.

erdnarob: Awesome suggestion! I have been trying to work out more my upper body in hopes of building more strength in the arms as well. Mostly I ask about the full flare to do the soft landings as you said. One day I'm going to stick the stand up landing, and be rest assured you'll hear from me about it. :)

[emmiwy 0]

I passed my levels 5-7 today with stand up landings! All it took was really digging down using the technique that my instructor told me [in two-stage, bend at elbows pointed upwards and push down, instead of pulling down]. It was AWESOME to land softly and not slide on my butt for a change. Thanks all, BLUE SKIES! :)

[thrillstalker 0]

to the op DO NOT DO THIS, this is a question for the experienced jumpers. so experienced jumpers, her being a smaller person (meaning she has a shorter arm reach esp jumping a 240) would taking a wrap help her with a more powerful flare? i know she will ultimantly have to be coached by an affi instructor if they think it might be a possibality. just curious.

"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

[The_Don 0]

No. she is doing just what she should do.

As in. LISTEN TO YOUR INSTRUCTOR!!!

I am NOT being loud.
I'm being enthusiastic!

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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to the op DO NOT DO THIS, this is a question for the experienced jumpers. so experienced jumpers, her being a smaller person (meaning she has a shorter arm reach esp jumping a 240) would taking a wrap help her with a more powerful flare? i know she will ultimantly have to be coached by an affi instructor if they think it might be a possibality. just curious.

NO! Student canopies usually have the brakes set so that a normal reach can't stall the canopy. Having a little bit shorter arms and not getting the full flare out of it is not that big of a deal because the canopy isn't descending all that fast anyway (big, fat student canopy).

Taking that extra wrap would give the student a chance to stall the canopy. If they flare too high, the stall could drop them hard enough to get hurt.

Not stalling is more important than a full flare.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[thrillstalker 0]

makes sense, thanks for clearing it up.

"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

[DesertDevil 0]

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I passed my levels 5-7 today with stand up landings! All it took was really digging down using the technique that my instructor told me [in two-stage, bend at elbows pointed upwards and push down, instead of pulling down]. It was AWESOME to land softly and not slide on my butt for a change. Thanks all, BLUE SKIES! :)

Congrats on graduating! And good landing!

[emmiwy 0]

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to the op DO NOT DO THIS, this is a question for the experienced jumpers. so experienced jumpers, her being a smaller person (meaning she has a shorter arm reach esp jumping a 240) would taking a wrap help her with a more powerful flare? i know she will ultimantly have to be coached by an affi instructor if they think it might be a possibality. just curious.

Even if I wanted to try I'd have no idea what you're referring to. What's a wrap?

I've been successful with landing just making sure that I full flare properly. Thanks!

DesertDevil, cheers! :) I'm looking forward to my coach jumps!

[DSE 3]

Emily, been fun watching you progress. You're kickin' em' out. Congrats!
Don't worry about wraps. The rigs you're jumping are set up just fine, and your flares (on the jumps I've seen), have been just right.

Keep knockin' em' out and you'll have your A soon enough. Let's hope for good weather this weekend!