Problem night skydive

[sammielu 3]

A USPA D license is not a requirement, no one has to get one of those... unless you want to use that license to get other ratings.
Night jumps seem easy until you do them and have productive discussions like this. Do I want to exit a plane at night again? Only if I have too (emergency) or have ideal conditions and a plan. Did I know that before I did night jumps? Nope. That's the value I see in including them.

[JohnMitchell 16]

Rick

I would much rather jump at night with 3 other jumpers into a stadium than a otter load of jumpers with headlights lighting the landing area

Hell yeah, now that you mention it, I agree. I've done quite a few night demos and they were all pretty easy.

[propblast 0]

Night jumps are a lot of fun and I've done many. The problem is jumper comfort and as you can tell in this thread-not a lot of people are comfortable at night.

Propblast

[JohnMitchell 16]

Proper preplanning and sound techniques, right?

[propblast 0]

Very much so

Propblast

[skyjumpenfool 2]

I heard about your water landing. I was glad to hear you survived well. Also, I was surprised to hear that this happened. I know this DZ and I know that a thorough briefing was done.

Something everyone needs to understand is that, not everyone sees the same at night. Night vision is something that some suffer from more than others. You'll find out what I mean the first time you're in a car at night, during a rainstorm, with a driver who suffers from (with out knowing) night blindness. I'd be certain to have this checked out before you repeat any night jumps.

And, this is a shining example of why Night Jumps should be required for a D license. The OP may have discovered a weakness in his abilities. Something that should be corrected before a D license is issued. Get better at identifying the DZ or correct the night blindness issue. Not only should a night dive be required, it should be completed successfully.

Anyway, hope to jump with you soon.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[Croc 0]

skyjumpenfool

I heard about your water landing. I was glad to hear you survived well. Also, I was surprised to hear that this happened. I know this DZ and I know that a thorough briefing was done.

Something everyone needs to understand is that, not everyone sees the same at night. Night vision is something that some suffer from more than others. You'll find out what I mean the first time you're in a car at night, during a rainstorm, with a driver who suffers from (with out knowing) night blindness. I'd be certain to have this checked out before you repeat any night jumps.

And, this is a shining example of why Night Jumps should be required for a D license. The OP may have discovered a weakness in his abilities. Something that should be corrected before a D license is issued. Get better at identifying the DZ or correct the night blindness issue. Not only should a night dive be required, it should be completed successfully.

Anyway, hope to jump with you soon.

Absolute bullshit. No one ever accidentally gets on a jump plane at night. Every other license requirement requires demonstrable skill. If you land a mile off and break both legs, it counts as a successful night jump. This situation is as ridiculous as it sounds.

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[propblast 0]

It has nothing to do with accidentally.

It is a demonstrated skill. You have shown that you can jump at night - so others that want to jump at night know you have familiarity.

As stated above nothing says you need a D license. But, if you want one - you will jump at night or fake it I guess

Propblast

[Croc 0]

Please explain how it is a "demonstrated skill," and not just a meatball exercise.

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[DBCOOPER 2]

For all of the moon experts in this thread.

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/index.php

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/rstt/onedaytable?ID=AA&year=2015&month=9&day=23&state=PA&place=Quakertown

The above links show the moon data and terminology for the last night jumps I participated in. The moon was so bright it cast shadows on the ground. There was no need for any artificial(car) lights at all.
With the proper planning, training and light discipline night jumps can be just as safe as day jumps.

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[propblast 0]

You show skill in picking the spot and planning your outs.
You show skill in freefall.
You show real skill under canopy flying it using differing landmarks and also differing visual ques.

Jumping at nite is a skill all of its own and not one to be taken lightly. There is real skill in doing it well. From planning and prep- through execution.

You call it a meatball exercise, I bet I can find ten people in a minute to say the same thing about general everyday skydiving.

Just because you don't like it and it makes you uncomfortable, doesn't mean there isn't any skill to it,or that it doesn't demonstrate a skill set.


Eta : oh nevermind....

Propblast

[Croc 0]

Didn't mean to hijack your thread, but when I hear of someone doing a night jump--not because they think they might enjoy it (I know many jumpers do) but because they want a D license, the irrational notion that a night jump is some sort of skill that must be acquired in order to get USPA's highest license, drives me nuts. Unfortunately jumpers will have to continue to take this pointless risk until enough of the old farts die off.

Good luck.

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[FataMorgana 0]

Quote

Irrational notion that a night jump is some sort of skill that must be acquired in order to get USPA's highest license, drives me nuts. Unfortunately jumpers will have to continue to take this pointless risk until enough of the old farts die off

Well, it seems to me that skydiving is all about taking unnecessary risk. So, I ams not sure why it is bothering you that one of the licenses requires candidate to perform 2 night jumps. People are skydiving voluntarily because it is simply fun. Why would you want to sanitize this sport? Do you really think that somebody trying to land a parachute first time in their lifetime (cat A AFF jump) is taking less risk than the night jumper? Yet, there is endless supply of people that really want to do it. I do not understand where you are going with this “irrational risk” argument.

Also, not everyone needs to have a D license!

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.

Stephen Hawking

[Croc 0]

I am not opposed to night jumps. I am not opposed to Mr. Bills, CRW landings, or any other stunt that any DZ owner will permit. What have stunts got to do with obtaining a license to skydive? What skill does a night jump demonstrate, since, at the risk of repeating myself, no criteria need be met in order to have "successfully" performed a night jump? I have a friend who landed off and seriously injured his back. According to the USPA this was a successful night jump, since it occurred at least one hour after sunset. Does that make sense to you?

If night jumps are important to having a D license then how about, as a minimum, requiring accuracy and a stand up landing? (Just in case you accidentally get on a jump plane one hour after sunset).

As I have said we will have to wait until the old farts are gone before night jumps will be seen for what they are--a stunt.

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[Croc 0]

propblast

You show skill in picking the spot and planning your outs.
You show skill in freefall.
You show real skill under canopy flying it using differing landmarks and also differing visual ques.

Jumping at nite is a skill all of its own and not one to be taken lightly. There is real skill in doing it well. From planning and prep- through execution.

You call it a meatball exercise, I bet I can find ten people in a minute to say the same thing about general everyday skydiving.

Just because you don't like it and it makes you uncomfortable, doesn't mean there isn't any skill to it,or that it doesn't demonstrate a skill set.


Eta : oh nevermind....

You have missed my point entirely.
Oh, never mind...

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[Croc 0]

propblast

You show skill in picking the spot and planning your outs.

Not required to get a D

You show skill in freefall.

Not required to get a D

You show real skill under canopy flying it using differing landmarks and also differing visual ques.

Not required to get a D

Jumping at nite is a skill all of its own and not one to be taken lightly. There is real skill in doing it well. From planning and prep- through execution.

Agreed 100% Apparently the USPA doesn't think so since NONE of the above are required to get a D

You call it a meatball exercise, I bet I can find ten people in a minute to say the same thing about general everyday skydiving.

The meatball part is that there are NO criteria for a successful night jump as per the USPA


Just because you don't like it and it makes you uncomfortable, doesn't mean there isn't any skill to it,or that it doesn't demonstrate a skill set.

Who said I don't like night jumps? I've enjoyed the ones I made--two of the best jumps of my jumping career. Probably won't make another unless there is a chance for a night CRW jump. What I don't like is that it is required
for a D. For what purpose? You will not get on a jump plane with your AFF or Tandem student one hour after sunset, will you? And no one ever accidentally got on a jump plane one hour after sunset. So for the purpose of demonstrating a skill necessary for your jumping career it is pointless. Even if you get a pro your night jump should, as a minimum, require all the skills you listed as well as accuracy and a stand up landing. But no such thing is required to get your ticket punched. And THAT is what makes it bullshit.


Eta : oh nevermind....

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[ufk22 32]

First of all, the "light area open, dark area trees" is the night jump equivalent of the "45 degree" exit separation rule.
While it may sometimes be correct, it can also be the opposite.
Think about it.
This time of year, with crops removed and leaves turning on the trees, what areas would you expect to be lighter or darker? Bare ground or non-green leaves on trees?
Second, two cars headlights are not enough lighting, especially if on an airport without runway lights or beacon. If there is not a town real close to provide a reference, even worse. I've made night jumps both at a remote private grass strip with minimal (but a lot more than you had) lighting and at airports with lighted runways, beacon and a close town.
The second is a lot easier. Jumping into an airport on the edge of a large city, I found I could read my altimeter easier by tipping it down towards the lights of the city than I could from the cylume attached to it.
At a dark, remote airport, I actually prefer to use a strobe on the ground far enough from the actual landing area to not cause problems.
It provides a clear locator for the jumpers. It can be turned off when all jumpers have located the airport.
You also said no one could see your light. Did you deploy a strobe on a rope after you were under canopy, or what type of lighting do you use?
Last of all, were there easily identifiable landmarks around the airport?
Large well lit areas?
How far off were you?
Was the spot good?
If so, and you knew where you got out, maybe you just screwed up.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[propblast 0]

Croc

***You show skill in picking the spot and planning your outs.

Not required to get a D

You show skill in freefall.

Not required to get a D

You show real skill under canopy flying it using differing landmarks and also differing visual ques.

Not required to get a D

Jumping at nite is a skill all of its own and not one to be taken lightly. There is real skill in doing it well. From planning and prep- through execution.

Agreed 100% Apparently the USPA doesn't think so since NONE of the above are required to get a D

You call it a meatball exercise, I bet I can find ten people in a minute to say the same thing about general everyday skydiving.

The meatball part is that there are NO criteria for a successful night jump as per the USPA


Just because you don't like it and it makes you uncomfortable, doesn't mean there isn't any skill to it,or that it doesn't demonstrate a skill set.

Who said I don't like night jumps? I've enjoyed the ones I made--two of the best jumps of my jumping career. Probably won't make another unless there is a chance for a night CRW jump. What I don't like is that it is required
for a D. For what purpose? You will not get on a jump plane with your AFF or Tandem student one hour after sunset, will you? And no one ever accidentally got on a jump plane one hour after sunset. So for the purpose of demonstrating a skill necessary for your jumping career it is pointless. Even if you get a pro your night jump should, as a minimum, require all the skills you listed as well as accuracy and a stand up landing. But no such thing is required to get your ticket punched. And THAT is what makes it bullshit.


Eta : oh nevermind....

Do you need a D to skydive...no.

So really you still haven't given a point other than a hatred of night jumps....that you like...I mean don't like...I mean like.

You don't like the D requirement. Don't go get one. Plenty of people don't.

Propblast

[BigMark 1]

Some of my most memorable jumps, the city lights and super smooth air were incredible, the guy who passed close to me going the wrong way under canopy less so. (we did turn some points though)

Bad spot bills truck were the only lights.

[Croc 0]

I see the problem...you can't read. Dave Crocco D29552.

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[propblast 0]

Thanks for the insult Dave. Not only do I read fine. I already knew who you where.

Your D number is just to the left.

<-----

Very grown up of you, but hey whatever.

Propblast

[Croc 0]

I apologize for insulting you. Your replies indicate that you have not read my posts. Let's agree to disagree on this issue. Stop by Jerry's Skydiving Circus sometime and I'll buy you a lift ticket.

In the daytime.

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[propblast 0]

Fair enough. I may have to take you up on that.

:)

Propblast

[Anachronist 2]

Croc

Please explain how it is a "demonstrated skill," and not just a meatball exercise.

Exactly, night jumps are sketch, introduces erroneous risk as some sort of "training." It is a symptom of archaic thinking and is basically sanctioned hazing by the USPA.

There is never a reason to do one unless you just want to for fun (by all means, help yourself) and does nothing for training.

[betzilla 56]

dzswoop717

I don't understand why night jumps are required for a D license. I can see the need for a Pro rating holder to be night qualified because of the possibility of doing night demos. The average jumper shouldn't have to take this risk if they never plan to jump at night for fun.

I totally agree with this. I did my two night jumps fifteen years ago, loved them, landed on target, and will probably never do another, unless it's a ridiculously cool setup. These days, I'm just not that interested in the added risk.