Main Lines Entangling With Flaps

[PhreeZone 15]

Feb issue of Skydiving.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Guest 1010]

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I can after the weekend if no one else does -- my rig's at the DZ.

Wendy W.

Thanks Wendy, he's not the only one interested in pics.

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[rmsmith 1]

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Where can the Scott Miller article be found ?? Kevin

I think it was Scott Miller (alzheimers?), but the photo was in a recent issue of Parachutist or Skydiving. It showed someone still in the belly to earth position with the d-bag just above the container. The lines are being pulled from their rubberband stows, but the risers are clearly free of the pack tray, IIRC.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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I actually split the lines into two groups (one for each riser) for the last stow, which I make as short as possible -- 5 to 10".

I haven't had any line twists but once since starting this. Of course, that once I had to cut away . There was a thread earlier where Bill Booth mentioned that he'd videoed the opening sequence a few times, and that the lines coming out of the container were incredibly chaotic.

Wendy W.

We have been test jumping this line stow method for a while now. I really like it. It leaves the absolute minimum of line unstowed, and still allows both risers to be stowed down the sides of the container. Speaking of risers...their main purpose is to keep "things" from entangling with the deploying suspension lines. Ideally, they should be long enough to reach the BOTTOM of the container...like they still do in reserve containers. Main risers, however, have gotten much shorter so that pocket rocket drivers can reach up and either collapse or pull down the slider. This shortening of the main risers has had, as usual, unintended consequences. 1. With risers this short, the main turn toggles are no longer in, or at least very close to in, the main container where they should be. This makes it possible for the toggles to get free without the main container being open. This has killed several people. My answer to this new problem was secondary riser covers. 2. The shorter the risers, the longer the unstowed suspension line has to be, thus increasing the chance of entanglement. I don't yet know what my answer to this problem will be, but I am working on it.

As to why line twists happen, I suspect that unstowed line length has very little to do with it. My two leading suspects (other than body position and the old reliable "shit happens") are: 1. Too small or improperly made pilot chutes. (The longer the time to line stretch, the longer the rather unsymetrical bag is exposed to the slipstream, and therefore, the more likely it will spin) 2. The often very different forces that are required to open the left and right tuck tab riser covers. If one cover releases just a split second later than the other, it simply can't help things very much, can it? Velcro riser covers didn't suffer from this problem, but alas, they are no longer cool. Some people also think (Bill Coe included) that uneven riser cover release is a main contributing factor to hard openings. This is another problem I am working on.

Come on you all, lets see the arugments with what this poor lost soul has to say.

Sparky

Awh, come-on Mikey... all those "would be canopy engineers and want-to-be experts out there", as you put it will square off against you and I... well, errr, sometimes I deserve it, but they're smart enough not to go up against Bill.

[NWPoul 1]

So...when we can see this stowing method?
Sir's, pls post some pic's of the "split stowing"

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[feuergnom 22]

interesting read mr. booth
two years ago there was a heated discussion following an incident in germany and a fatality in france. we were asking if the discussed type of mal could happen to other rigs as well. maybe you could shed some light on these ?

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[peek 20]

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Here's a thought...prob though of and tried before....

having a center loop for a band for the final stow to equalize the uneven hand stows from the side to side "normal" stows??????

I have that on my bag that houses my Stiletto. I learned it from Sam Johnson many years ago.

[alexey 6]

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I actually split the lines into two groups (one for each riser) for the last stow, which I make as short as possible -- 5 to 10".

And me too.
Very-very interested in pictures...

Lexa

[wmw999 2,120]

Couple of pictures. Note the loop of line -- that's from the riser group that's coming back to the same side of the bag. I'm just careful with it when I place the bag into the container (larger pic is bag right outside of container). The length of free line is about the longest it ever gets.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[UKFSDude 0]

out of interested the thing that comes to mind with this split stowing method is the chance of the loop locking off over another stow during & preventing deployment. have you considered this and if so what conclusions did you reach?

Blue skies,

Everyone makes mistakes, just dont let them be your last.

[wmw999 2,120]

I have considered it, and that's why I'm careful with placement. I thought about stowing it, but wasn't sure I liked the thought of an extra rubber band in there throwing off the pull force on one side and not the other.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[NWPoul 1]

Thanks for the pictures...
About extra loop - if my understanding correct this loop is "open" I mean that it's can be released from both ends (coz' it formed from 2 different stows) so even if it catch something this wouldn't cause a lock?

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[wmw999 2,120]

That's true. But I don't like "can't create a problem" because ya never know what can happen -- I'll keep being careful with it.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[fcajump 153]

For what is is worth, I was taught to use the same method of "split-stows" and Wendy's pictures look just like my rig. However, what I do with that 1/2 loop is to neatly slip it under all the other line groups against the D-bag. This way it stays put, but does not have a lopsided stow band on that line group.

While I WON'T say that one problem or another couldn't happen, but with about 1,100 jumps on this method without issue and no deployments in line twist of over 180 out (and very few over 50-90 off-heading), I think this is a reasonable method.

Jim

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[rehmwa 2]

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However, what I do with that 1/2 loop is to neatly slip it under all the other line groups against the D-bag.

See, although unlikely (?) I'd be worried about it pulling a stow out as exits from under the line groups. But I'm sure you mitigate that with fresh bands and even double banding on those stows.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[diablopilot 2]

That and high friction of lines against lines.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[fcajump 153]

In Reply To
However, what I do with that 1/2 loop is to neatly slip it under all the other line groups against the D-bag.

See, although unlikely (?) I'd be worried about it pulling a stow out as exits from under the line groups. But I'm sure you mitigate that with fresh bands and even double banding on those stows.

______________________________________

Actually, to complete my dangerous and unconventional description (and answer questions implied..)

I do keep my stow bands fresh and I double wrap but I keep my bites to ~1". (and use the appropriate sized band for the line type) I've done this for years with both Dacron and Spectra lines with no evidence of friction burns.

Jim

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[matthewcline 0]

I took Wendy's photo and added the stow point I have seen before. I have seen this type of stow set up on a few "modified" d-bags out there. I am sure it is not "new" but it seems to be a better representation of what is being described in some posts.

MO; it makes the ends of the risers terminate at the same length when your finished packing.

The draw back; it makes the top of the riser turn toward the center of the bag and could add to the canche of the riser catching on the bottom of the reserve.

Personnally, I follow the books for the various rigs, but that is because I got to do the Examiner Course in DeLand and sat with you, Tk and Marc, and learned more than just Tandems "Ins and Outs".

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[rehmwa 2]

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I do keep my stow bands fresh and I double wrap but I keep my bites to ~1". (and use the appropriate sized band for the line type) I've done this for years with both Dacron and Spectra lines with no evidence of friction burns.

I like it. I'm only really particular about a couple things when it comes to my main pack - line and bridle cord neatness. I'll try the split final stow like Wendy's picture this year and maybe even look at a neat tuck of that half loop......

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[MB38 0]

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I took Wendy's photo and added the stow point I have seen before. I have seen this type of stow set up on a few "modified" d-bags out there. I am sure it is not "new" but it seems to be a better representation of what is being described in some posts.

Wouldn't an additional center stow at the illustrated location increase the required pull force to free lines on one side and not the other? As photographed, the left line group would have two stows to clear in the same space that the right line group would only have one. If the mission is to help eliminate line twists, this seems like a step in the wrong direction.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[matthewcline 0]

I don't know. It is some thing I have seen, but not used myself. I wouldn't think it took any more force than if the stow was placed on the side in the "convetnional" style of line stows.

I just thought the discriptions in some posts happen to be refering to this and not the locking stow that closes the split bags. Buy the time the locking stow is payed out the bag should be well away from the jumpers back.

I am not a master rigger, our builder of rigs, just a user.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[JohnRich 4]

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As photographed, the left line group would have two stows to clear in the same space that the right line group would only have one. If the mission is to help eliminate line twists, this seems like a step in the wrong direction.

I think the deployment sequence would be:
1) 1st Left and 1st Right stows, simultaneously;
2) Middle stow (for Left);
3) Then the remaining lines, left, right, left, right, etc.

So adding that middle rubber band would just have the force centered on the bag, and not lopsided.

I like Wendy's idea, but the sight of that large loop hanging loose alarms me. Ack!

- John

[councilman24 36]

I think maybe the best idea, for those not wanting to do it the traditional way, is to put that center stow on and stow BOTH line sets there. I think that's what Gary Peek was describing above. Keeps the extra line from having to be longer to get to the riser opposite the last stow and keeps there from being extra to do something with.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[bob.dino 0]

Or, you could go to the centre stow (see attached) before the last pair of outboard stows. This might reduce the chance of risers being stowed around the bottom of the reserve container.

You could also put the lines into the centre stow from the other side; I don't know enough to tell you if that would be better or worse.

[fcajump 153]

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Could someone post a couple pics demonstrating this split stowing method? I'm having trouble visualizing what this is supposed to look like. So the last stowage requires two stow locations, one for each riser. Thanks.

I threw this together quickly last night and will append/edit if anyone provides feedback.

Jim

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...