NWFlyer 2 #26 March 3, 2008 Time to put away the philosophy books and study for something else now, Lisa. College kids... so cute when they get to their first philosophy class. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #27 March 3, 2008 Quote College kids... so cute when they get to their first philosophy class. I did PHIL 300 several semesters ago. Maybe if I hadn't had such a good instructor I'd have forgotten it by now and wouldn't be torturing you with it today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #28 March 3, 2008 QuoteSo, with this in mind, can we really know anybody? No. At best you can know what they want you to know, but not a lot more.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jewels 0 #29 March 3, 2008 QuoteQuoteSo, with this in mind, can we really know anybody? No. At best you can know what they want you to know, but not a lot more. Or what they want you to THINK you know.TPM Sister #102 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #30 March 3, 2008 Quote College kids... so cute when they get to their first philosophy class. Yes. Listen. Learn. The most important lessons are the most basic that we often forget when we move on to more intricate things.Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #31 March 3, 2008 Quote So, with this in mind, can we really know anybody? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No. At best you can know what they want you to know, but not a lot more. Except some people aren't as clever as they think they are. You like don't even have to be that observant to figure out what they're trying to hide. I believe in such things as intuition & perception. We do often perceive as we want to, and it often does "take one to know one" or sometimes it just takes knowledge of "one" to know another.Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #32 March 3, 2008 QuoteDoes our environment define us? Or do we define our environment? Depends on the individual and the strength of the individuals frame."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #33 March 3, 2008 QuoteQuotecan we really know anybody? This goes back to Socrates. Even prior to good ole So-Crates was Heraclitus who mentioned that we "cannot step twice into the same river" as at the second time neither I nor the river is the same. I change. I have made some deep changes over the past four years (and not just added parts in my ankle and knee) If you had known me 10years ago... genetically the same person.... but likely not biochemically. How can you know me if I am in change? I actually was being all philosophical earlier today. Wondering about life and death... Thinking about love and genetics... pondering the deepness of my belly button... all important stuffs... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #34 March 3, 2008 QuoteDoes our environment define us? Or do we define our environment? Others define us and we try to define ourselves. The environment we are in forces us to make certain adaptations and changes. For example, the bright sun will lead me to get severe sunburn with prolonged exposure. I have the choice of either: 1) staying indoors; or 2) wearing sunscren and/or other protection. How I respond is a reflection of me. If I am a person who prefers indoor activities to outdoor activities, my preferences will be indicated. It does not mean that I am a "stranger." It merely means that my personality is such that the choices i make are a reflection of my priorities. These priorities come from within. The same person makes these choices. QuoteI am no longer the person who made the decisions that have put me where I am today. Yes you are. The person you are made those decisions. If you were someone else, then different decisions would have been made. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #35 March 3, 2008 Quote I am no longer the person who made the decisions that have put me where I am today. AH, but would you agree that those decisions that you made back then have in some way defined the person that you have become, be it for the better or worse?"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #36 March 3, 2008 QuoteEven prior to good ole So-Crates was Heraclitus who mentioned that we "cannot step twice into the same river" as at the second time neither I nor the river is the same. A lot of people comment on "Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle" and getting things from Jurassic Park. So I looked at it, and because Planck's constant is so small, it is worthless except with atomic-level particles and such. It IS the same river - just different in the fourth dimension. QuoteHow can you know me if I am in change? Because you are still the same person as back then, just with different experiences leading to different adaptations. I hope to know you in 40 years. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #37 March 3, 2008 Quote I hope to know you in 40 years. Better her than me. I imagine myself completely crotchety and loving every minute of it. Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #38 March 3, 2008 Quote*** It IS the same river - just different in the fourth dimension. [.No it's not, the water coursing over that spot you stepped in is different, the particles in the water and on the substrate have been changed both by the water running over them and by you stepping in the water. As to being the same person because of choices previously made, you have it backwards. we are Different Because of the choices we make , to not change is to be the same, to be the same is to stagnate and dieYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #39 March 3, 2008 Quote Quote Even prior to good ole So-Crates was Heraclitus who mentioned that we "cannot step twice into the same river" as at the second time neither I nor the river is the same. A lot of people comment on "Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle" and getting things from Jurassic Park. So I looked at it, and because Planck's constant is so small, it is worthless except with atomic-level particles and such. It IS the same river - just different in the fourth dimension. ummm.... just to make sure, when I mentioned Heraclitus (c. 540-480bc), I was referring to one of the three Milesain philosophers... not quoting about killing a butterfly and changing the outcome of WWII. Philosophically, Chemically, Dimensionally (movement of the river in the bed).... the river changes. It might still be called the "Mighty Mississippi". . . . but it is not the same river. (and not just temporally) Quote Quote How can you know me if I am in change? Because you are still the same person as back then, just with different experiences leading to different adaptations. I hope to know you in 40 years. What I want to know is who I was 40 years ago.... I would LOVE the answer to that one! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #40 March 3, 2008 Quote Quote I hope to know you in 40 years. Better her than me. I imagine myself completely crotchety and loving every minute of it. you plan on being crotchety in your 60s ohwell, so much for a LONG full lifeYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #41 March 3, 2008 Quote Quote What he is saying is just because you liked someone does not mean that they are not an asshole now. But does it not also imply that those assholes could have turned into people I might like? Anything is possible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #42 March 4, 2008 I love how you pay me attention. Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
swedishcelt 0 #43 March 4, 2008 Quote I just took some codeine...i don't know much of anything right now. I'm on a muscle relaxer and a painkiller. Good stuff. My bum still hurts but I just don't care. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #44 March 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote It IS the same river - just different in the fourth dimension. [.No it's not, the water coursing over that spot you stepped in is different, the particles in the water and on the substrate have been changed both by the water running over them and by you stepping in the water. This is losing the forest through the trees. This is, what I believe, is a huge problem. "It's not the same water." "It's not the same depth." "It's not the same temperature." But it's the same river. Whether today or tomorrow, it's the same river. ***As to being the same person because of choices previously made, you have it backwards. we are Different Because of the choices we make Did squeak write that? Or did somebody else? Was it a different Squeak? Perhaps one living in Fresno? Or maybe someplace in the Northern Hemisphere? Someone who is not an educator? I'd venture to say it's the Squeak I know and respect. THe same person - not someone else entirely, My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #45 March 4, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote As to being the same person because of choices previously made, you have it backwards. we are Different Because of the choices we make Did squeak write that? Or did somebody else? Was it a different Squeak? Perhaps one living in Fresno? Or maybe someplace in the Northern Hemisphere? Someone who is not an educator? I'd venture to say it's the Squeak I know and respect. THe same person - not someone else entirely, That would depend on your definition of Squeak, the Biological being is ever aging and deteriorating, but the essence and spirit (whatever that is) is different now to what it was 20 years ago. Not just older but also a different person. I was a practicing addict and alcoholic, my moral fibre was less than desirable, my sense of honour and loyalty were appalling. If you took footage of a week in the life of Squeak in 1988 and contrast that with Squeak 2008, other than a similar however aged wrapper, i would like to think that the person inside that wrapper is not the same person from 1988. But it's difficult for someone who has not seen BOTH Squeaks to appreciate that. I think where your definition and mine differ is in that i am referring to things ever changing and therefore different as time passes, where as i feel you are referring to the NAME that we give things, this is a form of classification, which is entirely subjective, and a human construct. We name things to make it easier for ourselves to navigate life in our own limited understandings. If the water is different the substrate is different, the particles in the water are different, the only thing that is the same is the name.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #46 March 4, 2008 QuoteIf you took footage of a week in the life of Squeak in 1988 and contrast that with Squeak 2008, other than a similar however aged wrapper, i would like to think that the person inside that wrapper is not the same person from 1988. But it's difficult for someone who has not seen BOTH Squeaks to appreciate that. I think where your definition and mine differ is in that i am referring to things ever changing and therefore different as time passes, where as i feel you are referring to the NAME that we give things, this is a form of classification, which is entirely subjective, and a human construct. Totally. And I think that's what TS Eliot was headed for. Because we've "named" someone, until they do something we don't expect, we don't realize how much they have changed from the person they used to be. Just like the river. Lawrocket, how many relationships break up because after years together one person "suddenly" changes? Did they really change all at once? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #47 March 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteKinda seems to fall back on Decartes' "I think, therefore I am" .. the only thing that I can know for certain is that I exist. As far as I know, everyone else, and every object, is a figment of my imagination. Ooohhh, good one, I didn't think about it that way. I was thinking more of relating it to what is said in the book "The Four Agreements" - each of us lives in our own dream and we can't possibly know the dreams of others. Well, then . . . What if we take the inverse and say, "I forgot, therfore I am NOT." Isn't there an equal and opposite reaction for every action? Does electronic pulse distribution through neural pathways count as one action, or several?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #48 March 4, 2008 Quote Well, then . . . What if we take the inverse and say, "I forgot, therfore I am NOT." If you forgot something that you once knew, it implies the ability to think. Dontcha think? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #49 March 4, 2008 Quote Quote Well, then . . . What if we take the inverse and say, "I forgot, therfore I am NOT." If you forgot something that you once knew, it implies the ability to think. Dontcha think? I forget.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #50 March 4, 2008 QuoteLawrocket, how many relationships break up because after years together one person "suddenly" changes? OUt of the divorces I've handled (dozens) only a couple - and those due to a newfound drug addiction. I've had some problems with my wife, and all of them due to problems in me or myself that eventually cannot be ignored. I also bear little resemblance to the 245 pound fatty who failed out of college. I remember when I worked my way back into school, my first quarter back I was on the Dean's list and Dean Kohl asked me, "Is this the same guy who had a 1.2 GPA his second quarter? Is this the same guy who...?" I told him, "No and yes." He said, "You don't even look the same. What have you lost? 100 pounds?" I had lost 85 pounds. I was a different person, but the same person. I was no stranger (except for one guy, a couple of months later, asked me if I had a brother who goes there. "No, Dale. It's me.") That person is still inside me. It's a battle every day to keep him out. He is still there, and the person I am today is also the person I always was. Very few people suddenly change. Very few people drop few hints. Often, everyone else can see it coming, but the spouse or SO is in denial. It typically is the sweet imperfection that becomes the annoying intolerable. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
