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ernokaikkonen

Racer speedbag

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Whatever dude.

By the way, Steve Curtis has a bag very similar to Sparky's. It doesn't have velcro or tuck tabs. The pouch is tight enough as is. Referring to velcro on a D-bag and freefly friendly is quite a stretch.

Velcro closed riser covers, especially on Racers where it's run all the way down the sides, are not freefly friendly.

That particular debate doesn't belong in this thread though.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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It goes back to the early 90s when Sabres (and ZP3 in general) were first introduced. If I remember right, there was a rash of brutal opennings and even a fatality. I had a Sabre then and was told that tube stoes were verbotten because they caused line dump. I'm sure I read it.



Off topic again but:

I'm sure there were some hard openings when people first started to learn how to pack ZP. People not being able to control the slider during packing was probably how the Sabre got its undeserved reputation for hard openings. Tube stoes were introduced around the same time as the Sabre, were they not?

The combination of two new things at the same time may have caused some people to draw incorrect conclusions. I know that it's quite possible to pack good openings in a Sabre, regardless of the type of rubber bands used, as long as they're tight enough. I also know that if you let the slider slide down the lines during packing, you'll get a slammer regardless of the type of rubber bands used.

Oh, by the way, you can still get Sabre1s. I had the pleasure of packing some brand new Sabres last season...

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Nancy seems to have chosen not to respond.



I asked her to read the original "question". She did within a couple of days. She stated JS does not spend time reading DZ.com (it is too time consuming) so don't be surprised if there is no answer.

rm



She found time to read and respond twice to this thread.:S

Spakry



I emailed her and asked her to respond. She looked up the thread and responded twice one after the other. I don't expect she is monitoring this. I think they have better things to do. OK I am done, I'll just sit back an read what experts (like MikeF and RiggerRob) have to say...

rm

rm

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Um... okay.

What's your point?

It's really nice that you've done 1000 jumps on a bag with free stoes.

But what's your point?

I maybe wrong here but I don't think Sid said anywhere that free stoes = line du... I mean out of sequence openings. That's like saying "If you smoke you'll die of Cancer" (and you'd be the guy saying "I've smoked for 30 years ... yada yada)

The point of the freebag is to minimize the risk of out of sequence deployments.

By the way, I have a friend with 1000s of jumps and no reserve rides. By your logic, He must have a parachute that doesn't malfunction.

Like you said:
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This is not a theory; it is something that has been proven over 1000 times.


I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

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It goes back to the early 90s when Sabres (and ZP3 in general) were first introduced. If I remember right, there was a rash of brutal opennings and even a fatality. I had a Sabre then and was told that tube stoes were verbotten because they caused line dump. I'm sure I read it.



Off topic again but:

I'm sure there were some hard openings when people first started to learn how to pack ZP. People not being able to control the slider during packing was probably how the Sabre got its undeserved reputation for hard openings. Tube stoes were introduced around the same time as the Sabre, were they not?

The combination of two new things at the same time may have caused some people to draw incorrect conclusions. I know that it's quite possible to pack good openings in a Sabre, regardless of the type of rubber bands used, as long as they're tight enough. I also know that if you let the slider slide down the lines during packing, you'll get a slammer regardless of the type of rubber bands used.

Oh, by the way, you can still get Sabre1s. I had the pleasure of packing some brand new Sabres last season...


True you can still get them. Heck, you can get an Excaliber if your heart desires.

The issue with tube stoes was that they rolled instead of flipped making them more likely to release your micro line.

Actually, I believe it was the introduction of microline that was the issue, not so much the ZP3.

And I totally agree that often bad packing and resulting hard opennings were very often wrongly blamed on line dump, but lets not hijack the thread:P
I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

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but lets not hijack the thread:P


no, why don't we let it die, everybody has expressed an opinion, we've all preached to people who can't/won't be converted, but hey! If y'all are having fun........... :)
Pete Draper,

Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right?

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On a main bag the pilot chute is attached to the canopy so it would be real hard to have “bag strip” without ripping a hole in the top of the canopy.



I'm not sure I follow you here, Sparky?

Isn't the pilot chute effectively attached to the main D-bag until the slack is removed from the bridle between the bag and the canopy, which will not occur until the bag comes off the canopy?

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Velcro closed riser covers, especially on Racers where it's run all the way down the sides, are not freefly friendly.



While I can't speak for larger Racers, small Racers with velcro down the side are VERY freefly friendly, provided the Velcro is maintained. It's all about the maintenance when it comes to velcro, and the care taken when the two sides are mated together.

For Great Deals on Gear


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Should we move the thread to Speakers Corner?:P



Yep! 'Cause I never go in there! B|
Pete Draper,

Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right?

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People don't realize that the manufacturers of reserve canopies don't do their high speed heavy drops using the old style freebag w/bungee stow & pouch. The canopies wouldn't pass the test (they'd probably blow up or blow thier lines off). All the major manufacturers use "special" bags wherein every stow is a locking stow so that the canopies will take the vicious openings encountered when you static line a 97 sq ft reserve with a 300 pound load at 180 mph!



If "those manufacturers" who use "special bags" for their reserve canopy testing were doing so under TSOc23-d, then they would all have void TSO's. Section 4.3.4 Strength tests states: No material(s) or device(s) that atteuates shock loads (read, special bag) and is not an intregral part of the parachute assy or COMPONENT being being certified may be used.

Additionally there is no requirement to drop a 97' canopy @ 300 lbs @ 180 knts. 4.3.4.2 Heavy Drops, canopy to be used with a single or a dual harness reserve parachute assy (alt test for 4.3.4.1): Three drops with a suspended weight and speed in accordance with 4.3.4.

4.3.4 states: A. Test weight= maximum operating weight limit x 1.2.

B. Test speed = Maximum operating speed limit x 1.2.

4.3.4 does give a minimum weight 264 lbs and a speed of not less than 180 KEAS as starting points. It does not however state that any particular size must be used or that each and every size of the product being tested must be heavy dropped. So your arguements don't hold H20.


When we heavy dropped the Reflex under C23d we used an Amigo reserve using the standard bungee stow free bag assy. No damage no problems no "line dump". So what I'm reading here is every harness/ container manufacturer that uses the very well tested and documented over many many years (since the early 80's) bungee stow free bag is wrong? I for one find that a little hard to swallow. Considering how many deployments have been made on the bungee/ free bag system over the years, the extreemly small failure rate is is about as good as it gets in an activity that is inherently dangerous.

I think most manufacturers would agree withthis assessment.

Mick.

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Theoretically under the right circumstances, the pilot chute can strip the free bag off of the canopy leaving the canopy lying in the pack tray. I have never seen it happen and have only heard about it second and third hand. With a main D-bag this can’t happen because were the pilot chute goes so goes the main canopy.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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I have repacked at least three of these where two people pulling on the rig (one on the container, one on the bridle) were not enough to release the canopy from the Speedbag!!

When I brought this to the attention of Jump Shack they just replied that they had not been able to duplicate this effect during their testing.



i was.

i had placed seventy-five pounds of weight on a speedbag, and after peeling all but the last two stows, none of which were holding lines, the bag remained locked.

i talked to the manufacturer and their response was that a freebag does not remain static during deployment. i agree with them.

if i could only be sure of what direction the bag would move, none of this would be an issue.

when i get in writing from the manufacturer that bag jostle will prevent a bag lock on a speedbag, i will pack a speedbag, but not before.

i guess this thread has changed some opinions, i used to say the speedbag didn't offer any advantages. now i would have to say it offers at least one disadvantage. your mileage may vary.

blue stuff,
p.j.


pulling is cool. keep it in the skin

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I have repacked at least three of these where two people pulling on the rig (one on the container, one on the bridle) were not enough to release the canopy from the Speedbag!!

When I brought this to the attention of Jump Shack they just replied that they had not been able to duplicate this effect during their testing.




i had placed seventy-five pounds of weight on a speedbag, and after peeling all but the last two stows, none of which were holding lines, the bag remained locked.



PJ asked me to post this picture taken today of his experiment.

Personally, I will continue to avoid jumping or packing a rig equipped with a speedbag or any freebag incorporating rubber bands.

Pancake

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Ah I see.

So if you remove the canopy to make the bag abnormally thin, have no lines and jam the knot through the grommet basically make the test as unrealistic as possible you can hang 75 lbs from it. :S

You know you could have hit 80lbs if you wrapped it in duct tape too.

Well I guess the next time I'm jumping a cardboard tube instead of a reserve canopy, I'll be concerned.


Sorry Sid, last post I swear. This ain't fun anymore, it's just frustrating.
I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

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My local rigger ran into the speedbag a little while ago when a local jumper just got a new Racer. He also found that he could put a lot of weight on the bag and it would stay locked. He called Jump Shack and they basically told him that the guarantee the locking stows will come out if it is jerked hard (like in a high speed malfunction). :S
So that has me worried about what would happen if you had to use one with a slow speed malfunction. I bet it wouldn't work at all if you had to deploy your reserve without cutting away your main first, like if you were under 1000 feet.

(I just spent the last two hours reading this thread, very informative, I'm continually amazed by the amount of information I can find on this website, I just wish we could come up with a definite answer.)

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I will continue to avoid jumping or packing a rig equipped with a speedbag or any freebag incorporating rubber bands



Just to clarify, I don't think that bands are a bad idea. They give a staged deployment and they break when necessary.

If you look at the Service Bulletin 1-01-01 when Jump Shack originally decided that bands were better they used two bands to close the bag and set the rest of the stow bands down the centre of the bag, as is common on mains these days.

This gave the desired effect that they were looking for without the dangers of the baglock inherent in their new two-flap bags. Other than to be different form the rest (why??) what benefits are there to be had from two-flaps on the bag over the method shown in the Service Bulletin?

Anyone help educate me on that?


nb:
IMHO Aeordyne have got it right with the new Icon freebag.
I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

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o if you remove the canopy to make the bag abnormally thin, have no lines and jam the knot through the grommet basically make the test as unrealistic as possible you can hang 75 lbs from it.




I did a very similar test with three different 2K3's that came in for repacks and got the same BagLock when I pulled out the bag from the container. This was in normal circumstances with no setting up of the test other than taking it out of the container. ie a fairly good example of what would happen in reality.

This is not a Bash Jump Shack thread. Not from myself in particular anyhow, I like their products in the most part and have owned Racers. I was dissapointed that when a potential problem has arisen that they are not addressing it. They simlpy say that they couldn't make it happen.

Sadly it took a fatality with the Omega from Performance Variables to acknowledge and issue that was found with system. They outright stated that it couldn't happen. Much like Jump Shack are doing now.

I hope that no family, wife, son, daughter, brother, father will have to bear the pain that the family of Bertrand Marty had to bear because the Manufacturer stated "It could not happen"
I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

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I have repacked at least three of these where two people pulling on the rig (one on the container, one on the bridle) were not enough to release the canopy from the Speedbag!!

When I brought this to the attention of Jump Shack they just replied that they had not been able to duplicate this effect during their testing.




i had placed seventy-five pounds of weight on a speedbag, and after peeling all but the last two stows, none of which were holding lines, the bag remained locked.



PJ asked me to post this picture taken today of his experiment.

Personally, I will continue to avoid jumping or packing a rig equipped with a speedbag or any freebag incorporating rubber bands.

Pancake



interesting but that is not anywhere near realistic. why not do the same static test with a canopy installed and pull down on the lineset. how much force required to extract the bag from the canopy...

rm

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: Ah I see.

So if you remove the canopy to make the bag abnormally thin, have no lines and jam the knot through the grommet basically make the test as unrealistic as possible you can hang 75 lbs from it.



it's something i can't do with a bag equipped with a safety stow.


pulling is cool. keep it in the skin

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So that has me worried about what would happen if you had to use one with a slow speed malfunction. I bet it wouldn't work at all if you had to deploy your reserve without cutting away your main first, like if you were under 1000 feet.


absolutely my last post here - honest - last week, Nykolas "To Ligado" had lines break on his stilleto at Skydive DeLand. At right around 1000' he pulled his reserve and then released the streamering main. He was under his reserve (deployed from a speedbag in a PowerRacer) by 850'. An observer on the ground actually said "Wow, good job you have a skyhook"(which OF COURSE he doesn't).

It was probably one of the slowest speed situations for a cutaway and he had a typical Racer reserve deployment, very fast, very smooth and on heading.

I am going to play with some speedbags after I have finished this project and duplicate the experiments mentioned in more life like situations. I'll take pictures.
Pete Draper,

Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right?

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