mjosparky 3 #1 February 12, 2006 Here is the scenario. Acme Parachute Co. had hired you to complete the required testing for TSO-23d certification of their new Catch me/Kiss me Emergency Parachute Assembly. (pilots rig) The system is complete with an all new harness design and 12 foot Cross Form canopy. They hand you a Test Plan and 2 of their new rigs. AS8015-B, 4.3.9 requires that at least 4 of the tests be live jumps. Part 105.43 states: No person may conduct a parachute operation using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, unless that system has at least one main parachute, one approved reserve parachute, and one approved single person harness and container that are packed as follows: Also see AC-205-2C, Sec. 6a. The question is, how do you conduct a “Parachute operation” involving live jumps on this new system when neither the canopy of the harness is “approved” without violating FAA regulations is some way? What rating or certificate must you hold to conduct these tests and/or make the live jumps? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tr027 0 #2 February 12, 2006 Just a shot in the dark here...test jumper could wear an approved harness under the test harness with an approved chest mount reserve?"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leapdog 0 #3 February 12, 2006 QuoteHere is the scenario. Acme Parachute Co. had hired you to complete the required testing for TSO-23d certification of their new Catch me/Kiss me Emergency Parachute Assembly. (pilots rig) The system is complete with an all new harness design and 12 foot Cross Form canopy. They hand you a Test Plan and 2 of their new rigs. AS8015-B, 4.3.9 requires that at least 4 of the tests be live jumps. Part 105.43 states: No person may conduct a parachute operation using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, unless that system has at least one main parachute, one approved reserve parachute, and one approved single person harness and container that are packed as follows: Also see AC-205-2C, Sec. 6a. The question is, how do you conduct a “Parachute operation” involving live jumps on this new system when neither the canopy of the harness is “approved” without violating FAA regulations is some way? What rating or certificate must you hold to conduct these tests and/or make the live jumps? Sparky You test the new canopy in an approved intentional cutaway system. then you test the harness with approved canopy. basically one piece at a time. Gunnery Sergeant of Marines "I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #4 February 12, 2006 105.3____ Definitions. For the purposes of this part Parachutist means a person who intends to exit an aircraft while in flight using a single-harness, dual parachute system to descend to the surface. Approved reserve parachute: A certified parachute assembly that is worn in conjunction with a main parachute assembly and used by one person for premeditated jumps. An emergency parachute assembly: A certified parachute assembly that is worn by one person for emergency, (unpremeditated) use only. (PIA TS-135) SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrBrant 0 #5 February 12, 2006 QuoteHere is the scenario. Acme Parachute Co. had hired you to complete the required testing for TSO-23d certification of their new Catch me/Kiss me Emergency Parachute Assembly. (pilots rig) The system is complete with an all new harness design and 12 foot Cross Form canopy. They hand you a Test Plan and 2 of their new rigs. AS8015-B, 4.3.9 requires that at least 4 of the tests be live jumps. Part 105.43 states: No person may conduct a parachute operation using a single-harness, dual-parachute system , and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, unless that system has at least one main parachute, one approved reserve parachute, and one approved single person harness and container that are packed as follows: Also see AC-205-2C, Sec. 6a. The question is, how do you conduct a “Parachute operation” involving live jumps on this new system when neither the canopy of the harness is “approved” without violating FAA regulations is some way? What rating or certificate must you hold to conduct these tests and/or make the live jumps? Sparky Although I know nothing about FAR's, the way I read it is that the above quoted paragraph would not apply to this test. you are not using a single harness, dual parachute system. you are using a single harness, single parachute system. I'm assuming it's stated somewhere that if you intentionally jump from an aircraft, that you must use a single-harness, dual parachute system? but the above does not seem to deal with that issue. Although another question woudl be , if you must jump TSO'd H/C system, how can you do the live test jumps on that system to get the TSO rating? do you have to drive up here to Canada and test it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #6 February 12, 2006 QuoteYou test the new canopy in an approved intentional cutaway system. then you test the harness with approved canopy. basically one piece at a time. And if the system is designed with the lines sewn on to the risers similar to the GQ150 system? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #7 February 12, 2006 BASE jump it! Seriosly though... I assume they just get a waiver from the FAA, right? Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,046 #8 February 12, 2006 Sparky Old Buddy, You just like to rile the waters don't you? A couple of things: 1. When I obtained my TSO-authorizations under C23b there was an allowance (maybe in Part 37) that stated that the harness could be modified to accept a back-up emergency parachute (my wording is only from memory). I remember seeing a photo many a moon ago of a prototype CrossBow rig with D-rings on the front of the harness. 2. The FAR's supersede any AC's IMO. I remember thinking at the time that I could regularly jump a rig without a reserve using the argument that I was peforming the Live Jumps as req'd by NAS 804. Fun to think about but stupid to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #9 February 12, 2006 QuoteYou just like to rile the waters don't you? Who me? Just curious to see what would turn up. I am not familiar with Part 37. ?? But I think what you remember may be this. AS8015-B 4.3.9 Live Drop Tests, All Types: ...................For this test the standard harness may be altered to permit attachment of a certificated reserve parachute assembly (less harness) provided that such alteration does not interfere with the normal operation of the parachute assembly being tested. I agree with you that FAR’s supercede AC’s. And you are really dating yourself with NAS-804. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 37 #10 February 12, 2006 Simple - do the test somewhere other than in the USA. From what I understand (notice the fudge factor language), Canada has far less regulation of skydiving than the USA. Other countries probably have even less."Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #11 February 12, 2006 Make the jumps from a tethered balloon. ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,048 #12 February 12, 2006 I went out to FAA.gov and used their search function and got the following results: Your search - TSO-23d - did not match any documents. No pages were found containing "TSO-23d ". Suggestions: Make sure all words are spelled correctly. Try different keywords. Try more general keywords. So, it's probably not a big deal to them - go jump it and collect your money. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leapdog 0 #13 February 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteYou test the new canopy in an approved intentional cutaway system. then you test the harness with approved canopy. basically one piece at a time. And if the system is designed with the lines sewn on to the risers similar to the GQ150 system? Sparky Is this equipment you speak of designed that way? Gunnery Sergeant of Marines "I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leapdog 0 #14 February 12, 2006 QuoteMake the jumps from a tethered balloon. It's still an aircraft. Trust me, I have worked around these things for the past 15 years. the pilots have license awarded to them byt the FAA after meetig requirements and taking test and check rides. Gunnery Sergeant of Marines "I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #15 February 12, 2006 QuoteYour search - TSO-23d - did not match any documents. No pages were found containing "TSO-23d ". Suggestions: Make sure all words are spelled correctly... You might try TSO-C23d. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #16 February 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteMake the jumps from a tethered balloon. It's still an aircraft. Trust me, I have worked around these things for the past 15 years. the pilots have license awarded to them byt the FAA after meetig requirements and taking test and check rides. Who said anything about a pilot.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leapdog 0 #17 February 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteMake the jumps from a tethered balloon. It's still an aircraft. Trust me, I have worked around these things for the past 15 years. the pilots have license awarded to them byt the FAA after meetig requirements and taking test and check rides. Who said anything about a pilot. Very good. How do you suppose that the thing gets airborn? Even if the pilot isn't in the baket. Gunnery Sergeant of Marines "I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #18 February 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteMake the jumps from a tethered balloon. It's still an aircraft. Trust me, I have worked around these things for the past 15 years. the pilots have license awarded to them byt the FAA after meetig requirements and taking test and check rides. Who said anything about a pilot. Very good. How do you suppose that the thing gets airborn? Even if the pilot isn't in the baket. Oh heck, hadn't you heard? Every skydiver worth their salt can get an aircraft off the ground. At least that's what they tell the pilots when they won't fly in bad weather......---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leapdog 0 #19 February 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteMake the jumps from a tethered balloon. It's still an aircraft. Trust me, I have worked around these things for the past 15 years. the pilots have license awarded to them byt the FAA after meetig requirements and taking test and check rides. Who said anything about a pilot. Very good. How do you suppose that the thing gets airborn? Even if the pilot isn't in the baket. Oh heck, hadn't you heard? Every skydiver worth their salt can get an aircraft off the ground. At least that's what they tell the pilots when they won't fly in bad weather...... I would love to see that... hold my beer and watch this... Gunnery Sergeant of Marines "I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 37 #20 February 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteMake the jumps from a . It's still an aircraft. Trust me, I have worked around these things for the past 15 years. the pilots have license awarded to them byt the FAA after meetig requirements and taking test and check rides. Who said anything about a pilot. Very good. How do you suppose that the thing gets airborn? Even if the pilot isn't in the baket. With a tethered balloon couldn't one just winch it down? Don't need no stinking pilot "Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leapdog 0 #21 February 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteMake the jumps from a . It's still an aircraft. Trust me, I have worked around these things for the past 15 years. the pilots have license awarded to them byt the FAA after meetig requirements and taking test and check rides. Who said anything about a pilot. Very good. How do you suppose that the thing gets airborn? Even if the pilot isn't in the baket. With a tethered balloon couldn't one just winch it down? Don't need no stinking pilot The issue was getting it airborn in the first place. also wenching it down means equipment able to pull it down. maybe... You could extent the dump valve rope to the ground if you had one long enough. Another thing I didn't think of was teathers are only about 50 feet. Teathering a balloon high enough to jump from hasn't been tried and I bet pilots have knowledge proving why it's dangerous to do so. Gunnery Sergeant of Marines "I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #22 February 12, 2006 QuoteTeathering a balloon high enough to jump from hasn't been tried Sure about that?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leapdog 0 #23 February 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteTeathering a balloon high enough to jump from hasn't been tried Sure about that? If it has I have never heard of it. that's not to say I would know 100% fact. got info on it? Gunnery Sergeant of Marines "I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
niu 0 #24 February 12, 2006 The artillery baloon spotters during ww1 was equipped with parachutes,afaik. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,046 #25 February 12, 2006 Hi Sparky, Yup, I'm dated. Just waiting for the undertaker to get his measurements. You got me way to curious on this one (however, it looks like you found your answer in AS 8015B) so I looked up NAS 804 (the one that I did my testing under and the one that still governs me). In Section 4.3.7 it reads: Live Drop Tests: Two live drop tests from an airplane with a man weighing approximately 170 pounds, including the weight of an additional certificated auxiliary parachute, from an altitude of 2000 feet on a coparatively still day. The rider must suffer no discomfort from the opening shock and must be able to disengage himself unaided from the harness after landing. For this test the standard harness may be altered to permit attachment of an auxiliary parachute provided that such alteration does not interfere with the normal operation of the parachute and harness equipment being tested. So the solution has been around since at least 1949. So now let me throw one at you. Our old buddies at Acme Parachute Co. want to get a TSO for their new WhizBanger reserve canopy. In my copy of the draft document that the PIA committee came up with under Functional Tests/Direct Drop Tests it mentions doing a minimum of 48 drops where the canopy must open with the allowed time. Well, it seems as though Acme is having some trouble with this new canopy. To get 48 drops in which it will open within 3.0 secs (lets assume that is their req'ment) they had to drop it 211 times. This is because on 163 of those drops it took 3.3 to 4.6 secs to open. Now, did they meet the req'ment of the TSO standard? If no, why not? If yes, why? If you read the standard it does NOT say 'consecutive' drop tests. Just a little food for thought and to 'rile the waters' so to speak. PS) Since you think I'm dated; just how many modern rigs currently on the market (the big boys is what I'm referring to here) are TSO'd under C23b (the 'dated' req'ment)? Please note that I take absolutely no offense to being considered dated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
