TaylorC 0 #1 February 10, 2006 Got a friend who wants to get this canopy for himself. I think he should get something more suitable for that wingloading. What do you guys think? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #2 February 10, 2006 yes, suitable meaning .8 to 1 to 1.5 to 1 max. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
efex 0 #3 February 10, 2006 whats their experience level and what are they jumping at the moment? Warwick University Skydiving Club Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RossDagley 0 #4 February 10, 2006 Does your friend have a great deal of experience, and is he extremely current? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,051 #5 February 10, 2006 The Safire 119 MSW is 214# Whereas, on the FX119 is 262#. Food for thought.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #6 February 10, 2006 If he's qualified to jump at that WL, than he's qualified to select his own canopy. If he's not qualified to jump at that WL, no canopy would be a good choice for him. As ballpark guess, I'd say to be qualified, he'd need at least 1000 jumps, with 300 or 400 at 1.7 or better, and a good track record as a canopy pilot. Anything less than that, and he's kidding himself if he thinks he's ready. Lemme guess, this guy is short on cash, and he found a 'great deal' on this canopy. I'm pretty sure his current wing is at least a 135, most likely closer to a 150. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #7 February 10, 2006 All the money he saves on this "great deal" will be spent during the first minute riding in the ambulance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #8 February 10, 2006 QuoteAll the money he saves on this "great deal" will be spent during the first minute riding in the ambulance. I'm guessing that reserve will be used up with all the supplies the EMS guys use up getting him stable for transport, before he even gets in the ambulence. If they call for a helo, he'll spend twice that for the cost of the helo starting up on the pad. Once they actaully take off, the skies the limit (pun intended). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #9 February 10, 2006 I hope you don't mind if I ask you an O/T question. Someone pointed out early in the thread that the MSW for that canopy is 214 lbs. Is the MSW something that someone with enough experience and ability could disregard? I hope the question makes sense. I would have thought it was a hard limit regardless of experience. I know anyone can do pretty much anything they want with regards to their choice of main. Is the MSW more of a manufacturers way to try to limit wingloading or is it a real structural limit?Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thepollster 0 #10 February 10, 2006 Quote Is the MSW something that someone with enough experience and ability could disregard? I hope the question makes sense. I would have thought it was a hard limit regardless of experience. I know anyone can do pretty much anything they want with regards to their choice of main. Is the MSW more of a manufacturers way to try to limit wingloading or is it a real structural limit? Early Sabres were placarded 1.1:1 max (ie 132 lbs max on the 120) and Stillettos were placarded with 1.3:1. Many people safley went outside this MSW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #11 February 10, 2006 Quoteanyone can do pretty much anything they want with regards to their choice of main. Thats the answer. That post compared to an FX of the same size, which had a higher MSW. The canopies are made the same way, with many of the same materials. The difference is in the design of the wing. The FX will provide acceptable performance at higher loadings. Reserves are different in that they are tested to certain standards. They prove their reliability to certain weight limit, but the limit isn't based on flight performance, but on structural integrity. Typically reserves are tested to beyond the certification limits, and then overbuilt on top of that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlindBrick 0 #12 February 10, 2006 QuoteIs the MSW something that someone with enough experience and ability could disregard? Quote Depends. In general, max's should be respected, but some canopy brands have an arbitary max weight in the larger sizes that doesn't increase regardless of the actual size of the canopy. For example, The Safire II max weight tops out at 300 lbs on a 169. Despite being a full 100 sf bigger, my Safire II 269 is also placarded at 300 -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TaylorC 0 #13 February 10, 2006 he has around 900 jumps, jumping a monarch 150 right now and he has a half decent canopy flying record. Riggerrob you just fixxed his canopy back in the summer. I just don't want him to waste the money on a canopy that is not recommended at that high of a wingloading. And he wants to buy brand new not some good deal. When i made this thread i shoulda pointed out i was just wondering about flight characteristics at that high of a wing loading on a safire. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #14 February 10, 2006 Quote Someone pointed out early in the thread that the MSW for that canopy is 214 lbs. Is the MSW something that someone with enough experience and ability could disregard? The maximum suspended weight isn't structural, it's a subjective limit on what works well. It may or not be reasonable depending on your perspective. The speed at which a wing stops providing enough lift to support your weight is dependant on the density altitude, shape, and wing loading. I think that at a 9000 foot denisity altitude (5000 foot MSL field elevation on a hot summer day) ZP squares start to get unacceptable (especially if you throw in a small tail wind) at 1.4-1.5 pounds/square foot, conventional ellipticals about 1.7, more modern ellipticals 1.9, and don't stay current enough to care about cross-braced canopies. Those numbers aren't too far off PD's Stilletto (1.7) and Katana (2.0) maximums. Spectres do better than sabres but worse than Stilettos, so I'd buy the 1.6 lb/square foot limit from PD. But at sea level, I'm pretty happy with a size smaller. As wing loading goes up, you need to be closer to perfect to get an acceptable landing. If you're going to need to approach in brakes, land down-wind, land on an uneven surface where you can't slide to a stop, etc. you might want to be more conservative. I would not recommend over .7 (not a typo) pounds/square foot for flying big F111 seven cells into tight landing areas, and definately prefer that to .8. Other people are more or less relaxed about what they'll accept on landing. Glide ratio also falls off when you overload a canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #15 February 10, 2006 Quotehe has around 900 jumps, jumping a monarch 150 right now and he has a half decent canopy flying record. Riggerrob you just fixxed his canopy back in the summer. I just don't want him to waste the money on a canopy that is not recommended at that high of a wingloading. And he wants to buy brand new not some good deal. Your friends current 1.6 lb/square foot wing loading is NOT low; it's still enough to get a 50 MPH swoop. Subjectively speaking, the effects of increasing wing loading are not linear. 1.6 to 1.8 is a much bigger jump than 1.4 to 1.6. Moving to a more radical planform at the same time makes things even sketchier. When I changed from my Batwing 134 @ 1.5 to a Stiletto 120 @ 1.7 the thing didn't even fly straight on landing (this was not the canopy's fault). Discovering that after you've skipped a size is NOT a good idea. Hundreds of jumps on a 150 square foot non-square platform adjusting his muscle memory to a non-square's inherent responsiveness before thinking about down-sizing would be a good idea for your friend. Wearing out at least one lineset (500-600 jumps) before each subsequent down-size would be a good idea, since it takes a few hundred jumps to get a canopy dialed in and you might as well enjoy it some after that. Your friend may also find a wing loading that works well enough for him - I think about 1.7 is plenty for me at 5000 feet MSL. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites johnny1488 1 #16 February 11, 2006 The Safire2 performance is going to start falling off at about 1.5-1.6. I tell people (who have the experience) that this is where the Crossfire2 really starts to outshine the Safire2. Most jumpers who have the experience to jump a canopy at that level will be comfortable with the characteristics of the Crossfire2 (ie longer recovery arc, quicker turns ect.) I have not flown a Safire2 at that wingloading, but flew a Safire1 119 loaded at 2.0 this year and it actually flew better than I thought it would. But the Safire and Safire2 are completely different canopies. If he feels comfortable with the wingloadings, I would suggest he try the canopy first. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyfreek 1 #17 February 12, 2006 tell jackass to get his fat ass to the gym. he should be on a cross braced canopy. he is a high performance lander, so he should get a wing suited for that...tell him to get a new harness as well.... 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TaylorC 0 #13 February 10, 2006 he has around 900 jumps, jumping a monarch 150 right now and he has a half decent canopy flying record. Riggerrob you just fixxed his canopy back in the summer. I just don't want him to waste the money on a canopy that is not recommended at that high of a wingloading. And he wants to buy brand new not some good deal. When i made this thread i shoulda pointed out i was just wondering about flight characteristics at that high of a wing loading on a safire. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #14 February 10, 2006 Quote Someone pointed out early in the thread that the MSW for that canopy is 214 lbs. Is the MSW something that someone with enough experience and ability could disregard? The maximum suspended weight isn't structural, it's a subjective limit on what works well. It may or not be reasonable depending on your perspective. The speed at which a wing stops providing enough lift to support your weight is dependant on the density altitude, shape, and wing loading. I think that at a 9000 foot denisity altitude (5000 foot MSL field elevation on a hot summer day) ZP squares start to get unacceptable (especially if you throw in a small tail wind) at 1.4-1.5 pounds/square foot, conventional ellipticals about 1.7, more modern ellipticals 1.9, and don't stay current enough to care about cross-braced canopies. Those numbers aren't too far off PD's Stilletto (1.7) and Katana (2.0) maximums. Spectres do better than sabres but worse than Stilettos, so I'd buy the 1.6 lb/square foot limit from PD. But at sea level, I'm pretty happy with a size smaller. As wing loading goes up, you need to be closer to perfect to get an acceptable landing. If you're going to need to approach in brakes, land down-wind, land on an uneven surface where you can't slide to a stop, etc. you might want to be more conservative. I would not recommend over .7 (not a typo) pounds/square foot for flying big F111 seven cells into tight landing areas, and definately prefer that to .8. Other people are more or less relaxed about what they'll accept on landing. Glide ratio also falls off when you overload a canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #15 February 10, 2006 Quotehe has around 900 jumps, jumping a monarch 150 right now and he has a half decent canopy flying record. Riggerrob you just fixxed his canopy back in the summer. I just don't want him to waste the money on a canopy that is not recommended at that high of a wingloading. And he wants to buy brand new not some good deal. Your friends current 1.6 lb/square foot wing loading is NOT low; it's still enough to get a 50 MPH swoop. Subjectively speaking, the effects of increasing wing loading are not linear. 1.6 to 1.8 is a much bigger jump than 1.4 to 1.6. Moving to a more radical planform at the same time makes things even sketchier. When I changed from my Batwing 134 @ 1.5 to a Stiletto 120 @ 1.7 the thing didn't even fly straight on landing (this was not the canopy's fault). Discovering that after you've skipped a size is NOT a good idea. Hundreds of jumps on a 150 square foot non-square platform adjusting his muscle memory to a non-square's inherent responsiveness before thinking about down-sizing would be a good idea for your friend. Wearing out at least one lineset (500-600 jumps) before each subsequent down-size would be a good idea, since it takes a few hundred jumps to get a canopy dialed in and you might as well enjoy it some after that. Your friend may also find a wing loading that works well enough for him - I think about 1.7 is plenty for me at 5000 feet MSL. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #16 February 11, 2006 The Safire2 performance is going to start falling off at about 1.5-1.6. I tell people (who have the experience) that this is where the Crossfire2 really starts to outshine the Safire2. Most jumpers who have the experience to jump a canopy at that level will be comfortable with the characteristics of the Crossfire2 (ie longer recovery arc, quicker turns ect.) I have not flown a Safire2 at that wingloading, but flew a Safire1 119 loaded at 2.0 this year and it actually flew better than I thought it would. But the Safire and Safire2 are completely different canopies. If he feels comfortable with the wingloadings, I would suggest he try the canopy first. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyfreek 1 #17 February 12, 2006 tell jackass to get his fat ass to the gym. he should be on a cross braced canopy. he is a high performance lander, so he should get a wing suited for that...tell him to get a new harness as well.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
