schuey87 0 #1 February 7, 2006 I was reading on the Birdman website, that they reccomend using a rig with open corners when jumping a wingsuit such as the modified for birdman use wings rig, and that this allows the bag to leave the container freely and stop line twists. What specifically are open corners? What are the drawbacks of open corners on rigs? I'm guessing there must be some or why wouldn't every rig have open corners to reduce the chances of line twists. If you have a rig with these so called 'open corners' does it make, I don't know, freeflying, in certain body positions more dangerous, skysurfing. Is it incompatible if you like with any other discipline. What rigs have open corners other than the birdman modified wings? And can you tell from looking at the rig if it has open corners, does it change visually ther way the rig looks? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #2 February 7, 2006 in wingsuit, deployment can be made with lots of horizontal speed. Open corners will let the bag leave "behind" instead of vertically like in other disciplines. Would be like if you deployed head low in a non wingsuit configuration, which usually you try to avoid. Horizontal deployment in wingsuit allows to fly "till the end". Skysurfurs usually deploy in a more "standing" position, but they wouldn't want an open reserve tray.... Hope my answre is enough for you, maybe (certainly) other people will give you answers which I hop are quite close to mine.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tr027 0 #3 February 7, 2006 Quote What are the drawbacks of open corners on rigs? I'm guessing there must be some or why wouldn't every rig have open corners to reduce the chances of line twists. If you have a rig with these so called 'open corners' does it make, I don't know, freeflying, in certain body positions more dangerous, skysurfing. Is it incompatible if you like with any other discipline. What rigs have open corners other than the birdman modified wings? And can you tell from looking at the rig if it has open corners, does it change visually ther way the rig looks? The drawback is it takes an extra 5 seconds or so to pack, and since most people don't do WS they don't need this extra step. Other rigs that have open corners besides WS rigs are BASE rigs. You cannot tell the difference from the outside, you have to see the opened main tray to see it."The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #4 February 7, 2006 From your question, I am assuming that you aren't sure what corners of the rig are in question. The 'corners' are the bottom corners, where the side flaps and bottom flap overlap. Typical rigs have them sewn so that the corner doesn't completely open, or lay flat, they stay overlapped. They are 'closed' to improve appearance and make it harder for lines and such to find their way out. A closed corner will hold on to the bottom corners of the deployment bag a little bit even after the container is open. An open corner requires a little effort to shove the material get the same appearance of a closed corner.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #5 February 7, 2006 QuoteThe 'corners' are the bottom corners, where the side flaps and bottom flap overlap. Typical rigs have them sewn so that the corner doesn't completely open, or lay flat, they stay overlapped. They are 'closed' to improve appearance and make it harder for lines and such to find their way out. A closed corner will hold on to the bottom corners of the deployment bag a little bit even after the container is open. And I'll add to that: there is a functional purpose for this too. It helps to ensure that the pilot chute and bridle are pulled taut before the bag can be pulled out of the container. This keeps the bag from floating out prematurely and possibly entangling with the pilot chute bridle. It's part of the staging sequence of deployment to minimize malfunctions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #6 February 7, 2006 Schuey87... I see you've only got a few jumps and a really high A-License number... SunDevil and JR both gave a good description of what "open corners" are and why... to which I'll humbly add, that years ago, most all rigs had "open corners" or at least the pack trays were not as "over sewn" as they are on rigs you see today for a lot to do with "fashion" and for the reasons SunDevil/JR mentioned. I found it interesting when awhile back I saw rigs with "open corners" coming back marketed for wingsuit fliers... or a "wing suit mod" as you say... to "ease" (or quicken, how ever you'd like to say it)the deployment of the bag from the pack tray on a wing-suit because of the bigger burble. Just like Bell-Bottom-Jeans... if you hang around skydiving long enough, you'll see a lot of things come back into "fashion"... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #7 February 7, 2006 A few pictures of what you are asking about can be seen HERE"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tr027 0 #8 February 8, 2006 Speaking of that, we should really be ashamed of ourselves, Scott, for following such a frivolous old piece of silly "fashion" sorry, couldn't resist that one..."The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #9 February 8, 2006 Quote Speaking of that, we should really be ashamed of ourselves, Scott, for following such a frivolous old piece of silly "fashion" sorry, couldn't resist that one... There is nothing "frivolous" about closed lower main container corners. The closed lower corners were and are still are an important step in main parachute deployment allowing for proper "staging" of the parachute deployment system. It's called "friction staging". It allows for full pilot chute and bridle inflation/ extraction prior to the deployment bag lift off, thus minimizing deployment problems. Your reserve container is full of friction staging technology. Trust me it's not for looks, it's for methodical/ predictable parachute deploments time after time! Asthetics are purly a by-product of this valuable and thechnicaly proven science. Hope this clears up WHY parachute container corners (upper and lower) are the way they are! Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
schuey87 0 #10 February 8, 2006 So if you were using a wingsuit every so often, but also doing other disciplines, should you not be using a rig with open corners for the non wingsuit jumps? Also I originally thought when it said open corners it meant open corners on the main pack tray only, am I wrong is it both main and reserve or soley reserve? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #11 February 8, 2006 QuoteSo if you were using a wingsuit every so often, but also doing other disciplines, should you not be using a rig with open corners for the non wingsuit jumps? Can't answer that one! Don't do wing flying. My reply was made purely to counter the arguement that "closed corners" were for purly asthetic reasons. Ask a wing flyer, my advice: If one is doing two or more diciplines routinely, get a "dicipline specfic rig for each activity". Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #12 February 8, 2006 QuoteSo if you were using a wingsuit every so often, but also doing other disciplines, should you not be using a rig with open corners for the non wingsuit jumps? You can jump any discipline safely with cut corners as long as the container is closed properly."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tr027 0 #13 February 8, 2006 Sorry to confuse you... I wasn't speaking of regular corners as frivolous fashion, but rather dynamic/open corners as such. I'm a fan of them because like Mr. Campos, I use them for my wing flying. edit: the confusion probably came in due to the satirical and rhetorical nature the post was written in."The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #14 February 8, 2006 Quote Sorry to confuse you... I wasn't speaking of regular corners as frivolous fashion, but rather dynamic/open corners as such. I'm a fan of them because like Mr. Campos, I use them for my wing flying. edit: the confusion probably came in due to the satirical and rhetorical nature the post was written in. That's OK There is no confusion. Like I said, talk to a wing flier. But if one want's to pursue two or more specfic diciplines that require different H/C configurations for the majority of thier jumps then different rigs specficaly configured for those diciplines (for safety's sake) should be employed, otherwise disaster will insue at some point in time. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #15 February 8, 2006 Quote You cannot tell the difference from the outside, you have to see the opened main tray to see it. That's true with containers of the "wrap-around" design, but a Javelin with the "dynamic corners" mod, for example, does look a bit different than a regular Jav. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #16 February 8, 2006 QuoteThere is nothing "frivolous" about closed lower main container corners. The closed lower corners were and are still are an important step in main parachute deployment allowing for proper "staging" of the parachute deployment system. It's called "friction staging". But nowadays many manufacturers offer open/dynamic corners as an option on their rigs. Is friction staging not necessary with these rigs? Are there cases of deployment problems arising from open/dynamic corners? (Speculation follows, just thinking aloud:) Reserve containers are differentas are, of course, mains deployed with a spring loaded pc). With them, the container is already open when the pilot chute is deployed, and therefore friction staging is necessary to keep the bag in the container while the pilot chute is deployed. With throw-away pilot chutes on main containers, the pc is already inflated and the bridle stretched when the container opens. No need to keep the bag in the container at that stage, right? How pull-outs would fit in this I don't know. Pull-outs are weird. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MB38 0 #17 February 8, 2006 Right after the main pin is pulled, there is still the slack between your d-bag and pin... this could be considerable depending on the model. If the bag were to immediately fall out of the container with this slack present, there could be an issue. This is where friction staging comes into play. I think.I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #18 February 8, 2006 Racer is one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #19 February 8, 2006 Do you have some pictures about a Javelin with dynamic corner mod? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #20 February 8, 2006 QuoteDo you have some pictures about a Javelin with dynamic corner mod? No, sorry. Actually I can't find any reference to the mod on the Sun Path website or the Odyssey order form. I saw the dynamic corners on two PD swoop team rigs so maybe it was some prototype version or something? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
schuey87 0 #21 February 8, 2006 So are open corners on both main and reserve trays, or just main tray? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #22 February 8, 2006 QuoteSo are open corners on both main and reserve trays, or just main tray? What you are refering to, "cut or open corners", is what is done to the main pack tray only. A reserve pack tray looks like THIS"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pbla4024 0 #23 February 8, 2006 QuoteDo you have some pictures about a Javelin with dynamic corner mod? I do. Fido Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #24 February 8, 2006 Quote There is nothing "frivolous" about closed lower main container corners. The closed lower corners were and are still are an important step in main parachute deployment allowing for proper "staging" of the parachute deployment system. It's called "friction staging". It allows for full pilot chute and bridle inflation/ extraction prior to the deployment bag lift off, thus minimizing deployment problems. Your reserve container is full of friction staging technology. Trust me it's not for looks, it's for methodical/ predictable parachute deploments time after time! Asthetics are purly a by-product of this valuable and thechnicaly proven science. Hope this clears up WHY parachute container corners (upper and lower) are the way they are! Mick. Iteresting. I hadn't ever heard that angle on it, Mick. Where did that information come from or do you design rigs or work for a manufacturer? I still find it notable that the "wing-suit-mod" basically returns to old-school technology... guess it wasn't all that bad... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #25 February 8, 2006 Interesting. I hadn't ever heard that angle on it, Mick. Where did that information come from or do you design rigs or work for a manufacturer? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hee hee! Mick Cottle designed and manufactured a thousand Reflex harness containers. Friction staging is most important on pull-out main containers because the pin is pulled significantly before the bridle is tensioned. If the d-bag is allowed to fall out of the container - early in the process - deployments can get very messy. Similarly, most reserve containers depend upon friction to hold the d-bag in the container until the spring-loaded pilot chute is definitely pulling. Friction staging is less important with throw-out pilot chutes because the container remains closed until the pilot chute reaches full bridle extension and there is enough tension to pull the pin/release the flaps. Then there is a tiny hesitation (2 or 3 inches) then the pilot chute starts lifting the d-bag. Ergo, most BASE and wingsuit jumpers use throw-out pilot chutes and can get away with open corners. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites