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RIGGER

RSL REMOVED FROM JAVELIN H/C BY RIGGERS

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Why would a person who didn't want an RSL continue to jump with the RSL hooked up?

Is there an actual advantage to removing it vs. just not using it? I would think with the possibility of resale, it would make more sense to keep it.

I went the other way and had an RSL added to my Racer. I don't always use it, but like having the option there.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

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You should have seen me hit the roof when I joined the committee writing the standard and found out about it.B| That's why they put a relatively inexperienced "user" on the committee. To see the bigger picture. I really didn't remember winning that fight, but hadn't read the final document in a year. I still have at least 2 or 3 drafts with that in it. We wanted to test the cutaway forces. A reasonable thing to do with the current problems we sometimes have. But, when we realized the issues that ment since the main risers would have to be included, it was left out of this version. If you notice the definition of main parachute is everything that is not permantly attached to the harness. The exception to this is the RSL which will be part of the TSO and require testing and labeling.

And it was fun to get you worked up.;):P:)
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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Is there an actual advantage to removing it vs. just not using it?



I feel it's another snag point on the rig. If you never jump with the RSL connected there's little to be gained by having it dangle next to your 3-ring release.

Just to answer some of the questions asked in the thread from my perspective:
-My current rig doesn't have an RSL(not a Jav)
-My next rig will(also unlikely to be a Jav)
-I will pack a Javelin with no RSL as long as the hook velcro is covered with a piece of pile velcro
-I will remove an RSL from a Javelin at the owner's request, but will recommend that he keeps it on
-I wouldn't cut the guide rings off

If I had to deal with the US regulations I'd just say that as a rigger I get to assemble a rig as long as I think the components are compatible, and then go on say that I think the rest of the components are quite compatible with or without the RSL. I think the removal of an RSL(just the lanyard) is just re-configuring the rig. Calling it "an alteration" is a stretch.

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I was serious about this question. Very few people have made their own parachute but since it does happen on occasion, where does it fit into the 'only a Master Rigger can change lines' theory? Since the user himself built it, is he not allowed to change his own lines, modify the trim, etc ... ? It's a main like any other main.

What are your thoughts on this?


Quote

What are the regulations towards the following scenario?

A new skydiver gets the idea to build a parachute and actually does it. The skydiver is not a rigger of any sort, nor does he work under the supervision of anyone but himself.

After completion, the parachute gets assembled onto risers, packed up into a rig and jumped.


My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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Now that's funny.A person who has no rigging experience can builds a canopy and do anything he wants to it.

According to some of the posts in this thread, he, or a senior rigger is not allowed to replace a line on a proven (non TSOed) product when the specs and the parts are readily availible?

By the way, my current rig is set up to accept an RSL but was not shipped with the lanyard. (To keep on track ;))
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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Here is the FAR, you decide for yourself:

§65.111 Certificate required.
(a) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any personnel-carrying parachute intended for emergency use in connection with civil aircraft of the United States (including the reserve parachute of a dual parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping) unless that person holds an appropriate current certificate and type rating issued under this subpart and complies with §§65.127 through 65.133.
(b) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person --
(1) Has an appropriate current certificate issued under this subpart;
(2) Is under the supervision of a current certificated parachute rigger;
(3) Is the person making the next parachute jump with that parachute in accordance with §105.43(a) of this chapter; or
(4) Is the parachutist in command making the next parachute jump with that parachute in a tandem parachute operation conducted under §105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.
(c) Each person who holds a parachute rigger certificate shall present it for inspection upon the request of the Administrator or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, or of any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer.
(d) The following parachute rigger certificates are issued under this part:
(1) Senior parachute rigger.
(2) Master parachute rigger.
(e) Sections 65.127 through 65.133 do not apply to parachutes packed, maintained, or altered for the use of the armed forces.
[Doc. No. 1179, 27 FR 7973, Aug. 10, 1962, as amended by Amdt. 65-9, 31 FR 13524, Oct. 20, 1966; 32 FR 5769, Apr. 11, 1967; Amdt. 65-42, 66 FR 23553, May 9, 2001]

Derek

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So with all this arguing back and forth what about and RSL on a Jav and replacing linesets how about the fact that a PD113 can not be packed in to a Mirage due to TSO'd max forces.:|

OH OH OH...here is another one.....does Icarus approve of their canopies getting the X-mod by precision?
Fly it like you stole it!

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Quote


While it's fun and sometimes informative to read these threads, it's scary to see how anal retentive some people are, and how reluctant people are (and I guess discouraged by the FAA in some cases) to make a judgement call based on their experience as a rigger



If you like to be respected please respect the others. Do not go personal because other have a different opinion then yours. We all have a ticket to learn.

Safe Rigging !!!


Maybe I should substitute "detail oriented"? In all honesty, I view this more as a "splitting hairs" issue than a saftey or legal issue. You can say that an RSL might save a jumper on the very next jump, but it's pure speculation to do so, as is saying that the RSL could kill them on the very next jump. Gear should be kept as simple as the jumper using it wishes, and if they choose to remove a part that is not permenantly attached, understanding the advantages and disadvantages of the choice, they should be allowed. You don't have to pack their rig in that configuration, but telling them that they are breaking the law is a bit extreme since the H/C is tested in BOTH configurations.

Removing the lanyard is far different than removing the provisions that allow it to be installed.....

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You are getting silly.

Those days are over.
I built my last own canopy (from Para-Kits) 16 years ago.

Frankly you make as much sense as the People's Judan Front for the Liberation of Palestine defending the unalienable right of men to have babies. (Reference to Monty Python.)

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... how do you account for the countless repairs done and jumped on main or reserve canopies done by NON rated sewers at manufacturer's facilities.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Those NON rated sewers are included in the TSO quality control process. Every repair they do has to be signed off by a final inspector before it leaves the factory.

For example: when I was Customer Service Manager at Rigging Innovations, every day I did major repairs including: harness re-sizing, replacing straps, replacing flaps, Cypres updates, RSL retrofits, alterations for different AADs, etc. I may have been an FAA Master Rigger working with factory patterns, traceable materials, travellers, etc. but I still needed the signature of a final inspector before any of my repairs left the factory.

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:)
The rigger is covered by the law & the mfg. instructions all time the RSL was set correctly.

The rigger must return the rig back to the owner packed according the mfg. instructions.

I can not think right now why the RSL will kill a skydiver in a regular skydiving activity, can you ?

Safe Rigging !!!

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Let me blow a hole right through the "a main is unregulated" theory.
65.111 says who can pack a main, that's regulation!

One could also assume, that if regualtion is needed for packing, one would be for something like modifications and alterations.




And the regulation states:

Part 65.111

(b) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person

(3) Is the person making the next parachute jump with that parachute in accordance with §105.43(a) of this chapter; or


Does that not say that anyone can replace a line set on a main if they jump it next?
If it does not say that, please explain what it says.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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You are getting silly.




Maybe so, but the question is valid.

The reasoning behind it is the fact I have jumped a fairly recently home made parachute. It was designed and built by someone with less than 50 jumps at the time. This was not a kit.

If you care to see a picture of it I'll take one when I get home tonight.

Nice referrence to Monty Python.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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I can think right now why the RSL will kill a skydiver in a regular skydiving activity, can you ?



Did you mean you can't think of how an RSL could kill a skydiver? I can think of several:

- unstable reserve deployment resulting in reserve malfunction
- broken riser resulting in reserve/main entanglement
- riser hangup after cutaway resulting in reserve/main entanglement
- RSL/reserve entanglement after cutting away from two canopies out
- deployment too soon after cutting away from an entaglement with another jumper resulting in another entanglement (granted the RSL should be disconnected prior to cutting away - but that assumes that the jumper remembers, is able, and has time).

This is probably not an exhaustive list.
"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

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...shouldn't look... or throw another piece of wood on the bonfire...;)

Sunpath's owners manual for the Javelin does not list the RSL on the parts list even though they claim it is standard with every Javelin.

If for some reason they shipped a new H/C and did not include an RSL would you conclude you were required to have the lanyard to pack the rig? Why, it's not on the parts list?

Rob, it's not the People's Judan Front for the Liberation of Palestine it's the Judean Front for the People's Liberation of Palestine.;):P
"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

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I just now called Sunpath and asked Dave.....He says it is an alteration to remove the RSL from any rig that was manufactured with it. As a rigger that is all I ever need to know. End of story.:)
"It's very important at this point that you don't simply become a passenger." Flight instructor Dennis Anderson speaking about life and crosswind landings.



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JP,
The definition of an alteration to a parachute or parachute system, as defined by the FAA, is a change from the original configuration from which it was manufactured.

see below...

B. Any change to the configuration, method of
operation, or method of packing the main parachute, up to
and including the main canopy attachment links or the male
end of the quick release fittings, is a main pack alteration.
Any main parachute alteration that affects the strength or
operation of the auxiliary parachute, including the harness,
must be regarded as an alteration of the auxiliary parachute
and handled accordingly.



MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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>>I can not think right now why the RSL will kill a skydiver in a regular skydiving activity, can you ? <<


Search for "RSL" on this site for lots of information about the pros and cons of RSLs, or talk to a knowledgeable rigger.

----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com

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