Should I travel abroad for a world class AFF experience?

[dive42 0]

I'm located in the Czech Republic right now. I'm starting some tunnel flying with the intent of preparing myself mentally for the AFF (had a bad tandem experience in the past).

I'm thinking of doing the AFF at Skydive Empuriabrava in Spain after some tunnel flying(aka exposure therapy). My reasoning is that I continually see them being referred to as a world class drop zone. A world class drop zone where they jump practically every day of the year puts me more at ease since I'm assuming their experience and safety levels will be much higher than at a local site where they only jump during spring and summer in the weekends.

Is my justification for traveling to another country (costs and time requirements aside) to do the AFF at world class dz like Empuriabrava reasonable? Or are there important considerations I'm overlooking (I'm new to your world!) and should a potential student try to complete the AFF at whatever drop zone they intend to do most of their jumping even if that dz is not world class?

[BIGUN 1,050]

OPINION:

I started at a little 182 DZ and after a couple of years realized I wasn't making much progress with sporadic weekend jumping -weather contingent. I spent four hours each way for the next several years at a "World-Class DZ" and learned at a much accelerated rate to the point I was load organizing at the then World FreeFall Convention within a year.

If I had it to do over again, I would take the opportunity you present and if possible - get my first 100 jumps there. If that isn't possible, then get your AFF where you can and travel to as many DZ's as time allows and you can afford to learn something new at each one.

Good Luck.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[adamUK 3]

Of course you should and the night life at Empuria is great too so make a holiday of it.

The only slight issue with the DZ is that it can get windy in the afternoon so keep AFF students on the ground.

The other big DZ in Spain is at Seville, it's a bit more open as it's not sat on the edge of town like Empuria is and they guarantee 15,000ft (4500m) each load.

But yep.. great idea!

[justme12001 0]

I started at a small 182 DZ as well. You are correct in that the progress can be slow. That being said, I think that the actual first jump coarse and up to licensing can be better at a small DZ.

At a small DZ you will most likely get more one on one time and not be treated like a number.

So I say do your training at the small DZ. Once you get licensed and have few jumps under your belt, then go to the big DZ and get some experience and some "high end" coaching.

Another benefit of doing your initial training at the small local DZ, is that you will then know the locals, where you will most likely come back to a do a lot of your jumping.

[Joellercoaster 6]

dive42

Empuriabrava
...
where they jump practically every day of the year

For what it's worth: Skydive Empuriabrava is a very awesome dropzone with superbly professional staff and world-class jumpers based there.

But although temperature-wise Spanish dropzones are blessed, Empuria has its fair share of non-jumping days due to wind, and as adamUK notes this goes double for students.

Nowhere is guaranteed!

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[radical_flyer 0]

Anyone know which EU drop zones operate beechcraft king air or 99 full time? For some reason I think they're the best/fastest jump planes. I seem to have made a habit of developing personal preferences for things having little to no experience. I would say I consider exit altitude more important than jump planes and when getting onto sports jumps I don't think I'd mind a longer climb, although some other aircraft don't seem to be that much slower.

[tred 0]

***. That being said, I think that the actual first jump coarse and up to licensing can be better at a small DZ.

At a small DZ you will most likely get more one on one time and not be treated like a number.

***

started aff at big turbine dz and finished a license at small 182 dz, and this was my experience.

[format 0]

Quote

get more one on one time and not be treated like a number.

I tend to feel so too.
I think you may learn more from good dedicated instructor than from great one... who is very busy.

[adamUK 3]

Dunkeswell in the UK operate up to three Beech 99's. Awesome DZ, great pub close by and a pretty nice firepit for those late evenings.

[radical_flyer 0]

Oh ye sorry lol I forgot to mention that Dunks is my home DZ, I hope do do all my AFF/consols there but I've only been able to do one jump due to weather, hopefully it gets better when they re-open. I was just wondering about EU but outside of UK. Thanks anyway though. Where did you go as a student? Somewhere up north? You're definitely a long way from any of the drop zones down south that I've heard of when looking at other options, even Langar in Notts.

[adamUK 3]

I did my AFF at Z hills. Had a blast

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

radical_flyer

Anyone know which EU drop zones operate beechcraft king air or 99 full time? For some reason I think they're the best/fastest jump planes. I seem to have made a habit of developing personal preferences for things having little to no experience. I would say I consider exit altitude more important than jump planes and when getting onto sports jumps I don't think I'd mind a longer climb, although some other aircraft don't seem to be that much slower.

Tiny door, low tail, fairly high speed on jumprun.

Big door, high tail, reasonably slow jumprun speed: Otter.

Time to altitude between a KA/99 and Otter are not enough to matter, IMO.

Tons of fun, huge door, no tail considerations (but fairly slow climbing and very loud): Skyvan.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[AtrusBatleth 0]

In my opinion (and I am an inexperienced student so take with a grain of salt), I would recommend training closer to home even if it takes a little longer. This is assuming you have checked out your home dropzone, spoken with the instructors, and feel safe and comfortable and welcome there. If you're not comfortable training there then you should find a new home dropzone anyway.

The reason I recommend the home dropzone, echoing previous comments, is that you build a relationship and familiarity (and hear some great stories and experiences) from the instructors and staff that you will probably be jumping with once you are licensed. When I started I had no idea how restrictive the winds could be for students, and have spent a lot of time on the ground waiting (even rode up on a plane only to have to ride it back down). I considered taking a week vacation and travelling somewhere to get certified in a week, but it was because of the added travel and lodging cost that I decided to stay closer to home. I don't regret my decision, even though I am waiting through off-season still unlicensed. My wife even managed to join me at the dropzone a few times while I was waiting on winds, and that went a long way in making her feel comfortable with what I was doing (just as important as feeling safe about it myself).

Whatever your decision, make sure you feel safe with the dropzone you choose. Good luck (or Blue skies, whatever, some of this skydiving lingo still sounds cheesy to me).

Max Peck
What's the point of having top secret code names, fellas, if we ain't gonna use 'em?

[JohnMitchell 14]

Many factors work together to determine the quality of your instruction. Instructor experience, attitude, and ability are some of the biggest. Time allowed for training and practice and quality of the training and practice are also important. How dedicated is the DZ to turning out a quality student? How good is the gear? How high are the jumps?

I know there are many great smaller DZs, but I'll stick my neck out and say the bigger ones usually have more experienced instructors (or the newer instructors have very experienced mentors), bigger, higher climbing planes, and some of the newest, nicest gear.

[nikaru 1]

If you can afford it, SD Empuriabrava is a world class dropzone. It is also a summer resort so you can go with friends and family for a vacation and let them play on the beach, while you play in the air. You are also a couple of hours drive from Barcelona and Girona which are nice to visit for one day trip or a relaxing weekend if the weather conditions are bad for jumping.

You also have a wind tunnel at the dropzone so if you have any problem with the AFF you can solve it in the tunnel right away (my AFF took me one year and 13 jumps since I had to travel 800km to visit Empuriabrava and take these 30 minutes of wind tunnel time and gain confidence. If I had a wind tunnel next door I would have probably finished my AFF in a weekend or two). So, considering that an AFF may be complicated for some people, having a wind tunnel at the back yard may be a huge advantage.

At the dropzone you would also have very experienced instructors, master riggers, a couple of airplanes, many other students so share the experience, gear store, world-class pro flyers, jumps next to the beach, great weather all year long, great parties and the end of the day, many restaurants to taste the Spanish cuisine since the dropzone is actually within the town and much more. You may or may not have some of these things at your local dropzone. If you go for 2-3 weeks you can actually get your USPA A license so when you came back home you can start jumping without any problem. You would eventually get to know the jumpers at your local dropzone and find your mentor and friends when you come back.

I would totally recommend SD Empuriabrava. If you have the time and money, this place is dream for jumping and has to offer things that no other dropzone may offer you.

Anothe dropzone I would totally recommend in Spain is Skydive Madrid. There are tons of students both local and foreign. Also great international and local instructors and riggers, wind tunnel 50km aways from the dropzone, nice jumping conditions almost all year, big city with international airport next by. Its worth the money and the travel.

[hillson 0]

In the main, I think we tend to over-romanticize the selection of initial training DZs. At the end of the day we are simply learning to skydive - it isn't rocket science. Most national federations have similar training schemes and requirements. There are differences but at a certain point they sort of even out (you can pick up a USPA or BPA license at Empuria).

I think that John Mitchell's comment above pretty much sums everything up.

Some students seem to want the instructors to do everything including tie their shoes. Some students simply want the brief, jump and evaluation. Most fall somewhere in the middle...between needing undue individual attention and feeling like a number. At the end of the day...a bigger dropzone will likely get you your license quicker. In either case...you'll probably end up with 25-30 jumps and fly like someone with 25-30 jumps. Things probably begin to really diverge after that...100 jumps at Empuria with their lift, tunnel and a higher level of skill of both additional training and, frankly, the sport jumpers would put you ahead of the same 100 jumps at the local 182 DZ, skill-wise. Of course, you may also experience the multi-1000 jump hero with a badly ingrained skillset... Also, personally, I think that the experience of a larger DZ is valuable when it comes to having familiarity - from the start - of larger planes and learning to manage substantially greater canopy traffic. But maybe that's just me.

Your home DZ is where you make it...not necessarily where you were licensed. It isn't like you're never going to fit in because you didn't toss your first pilotchute at the local club.

I'm sure there may be a few "the plural of anecdote is data" type stories where someone saw or experienced something and uses that as a prooftext as to why their choice is "more correct." At the end of the day *thousands* of new licenses are issued every year, all around the world, and pretty much everyone seems to be doing a-ok regardless of initial training method or location. Time, money and desire are the big limiting factors.

If you want to be a statistic, at least under USPA auspices, have a decade in the sport, 1000+ skydives and turn yourself into the ground and / or jump gear with without (admittedly non-mandatory) generally recommended additional safety devices. But that is another discussion.

[rjblake 1]

dive42

I'm located in the Czech Republic right now. I'm starting some tunnel flying with the intent of preparing myself mentally for the AFF (had a bad tandem experience in the past).

I'm thinking of doing the AFF at Skydive Empuriabrava in Spain after some tunnel flying(aka exposure therapy). My reasoning is that I continually see them being referred to as a world class drop zone. A world class drop zone where they jump practically every day of the year puts me more at ease since I'm assuming their experience and safety levels will be much higher than at a local site where they only jump during spring and summer in the weekends.

Is my justification for traveling to another country (costs and time requirements aside) to do the AFF at world class dz like Empuriabrava reasonable? Or are there important considerations I'm overlooking (I'm new to your world!) and should a potential student try to complete the AFF at whatever drop zone they intend to do most of their jumping even if that dz is not world class?

Why not do it at Klatovy? Great dropzone and close to home. I did mine at Seville and it is great getting all jumps from 15,000ft+. Course price was excellent and accomodation excellent and cheap. Empuria is certainly one of the most expensive options if money is no object.

[dthames 0]

Not everyone has the same experience at a large DZ or a small DZ. I jumped at both as a student. Prior to being licensed the smaller DZ worked well for me because I had some problems that needed a slower pace of the training. But soon after getting licensed I was getting more opportunity to learn faster at a larger DZ.

Don't be afraid to test the waters at different DZs.

Your mileage may vary.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[gunsmokex 1]

In my opinion don't get caught up in who is world class and what kind of planes they have. So you haven't even went to the small dropzone yet and are considering spending more $$ to go to another. Skydiving is expensive enough and you haven't even jumped out of a plane yet other than a tandem.

I think you are way overthinking this, small dropzones are not bad at all. I learned on static line and wouldn't have it any other way.

Just go jump. Skydiving is a brother and sister hood, don't abandon going to the latest and greatest when you have a great opportunity in your backyard.

[mathrick 2]

wolfriverjoe

Tiny door, low tail, fairly high speed on jumprun.

Big door, high tail, reasonably slow jumprun speed: Otter.

Time to altitude between a KA/99 and Otter are not enough to matter, IMO.

Tons of fun, huge door, no tail considerations (but fairly slow climbing and very loud): Skyvan.

Heh, I only have experience with Lodi's Otter(s), so very limited, but I was shocked at how loud it was. It's every bit as bad as the Skyvan, except it holds for the whole plane, and not just the section near the cockpit. I'm absolutely going to invest in hearing protection now, I just need to figure out what brand blocks out enough engine noise without also making other people and my dytter inaudible. As for jumprun speed, I've heard much about how good Otters are because you can feather the left propeller during exit, but for the few jumps I've on it, that didn't seem to be the case, so it had rather noticeable blast. And horribly, horribly windy during boarding, I've never had to pull down my visor for that before Otter.

Skyvans seem to vary hugely between individual units, depending on what they're fitted with. They're never not loud, but they seem to go anywhere from "loud" to "please make it stop". Ditto climbing speed, some are slow, other can get to altitude in little over 10 min. Definitely lots of fun exiting, as long as you're not in the floater position :) Their substantial jumprun speed and sudden onset of the relative wind seem to make it rather tricky to do a good floater without at least some tumbling for jumpers who don't jump Skyvans regularly enough to learn their quirks. My hop'n'pops were always a gamble with a Skyvan.

"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

[JohnMitchell 14]

mathrick

As for jumprun speed, I've heard much about how good Otters are because you can feather the left propeller during exit, but for the few jumps I've on it, that didn't seem to be the case, so it had rather noticeable blast.

They don't feather it so much as reduce torque on the left side. It's still turning about the same RPM, just not pushing as much air back. Of course, even if you shut the engines off, there's still a lot of wind out there since the plane's flying close to 100 mph.

[jumpwally 0]

Most definatly travel with a broad......

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[jumpwally 0]

Most definatly travel with a broad......

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[skyjames 2]

mathrick

***
Tiny door, low tail, fairly high speed on jumprun.

Big door, high tail, reasonably slow jumprun speed: Otter.

Time to altitude between a KA/99 and Otter are not enough to matter, IMO.

Tons of fun, huge door, no tail considerations (but fairly slow climbing and very loud): Skyvan.

Heh, I only have experience with Lodi's Otter(s), so very limited, but I was shocked at how loud it was. It's every bit as bad as the Skyvan, except it holds for the whole plane, and not just the section near the cockpit. I'm absolutely going to invest in hearing protection now, I just need to figure out what brand blocks out enough engine noise without also making other people and my dytter inaudible. As for jumprun speed, I've heard much about how good Otters are because you can feather the left propeller during exit, but for the few jumps I've on it, that didn't seem to be the case, so it had rather noticeable blast. And horribly, horribly windy during boarding, I've never had to pull down my visor for that before Otter.

Skyvans seem to vary hugely between individual units, depending on what they're fitted with. They're never not loud, but they seem to go anywhere from "loud" to "please make it stop". Ditto climbing speed, some are slow, other can get to altitude in little over 10 min. Definitely lots of fun exiting, as long as you're not in the floater position :) Their substantial jumprun speed and sudden onset of the relative wind seem to make it rather tricky to do a good floater without at least some tumbling for jumpers who don't jump Skyvans regularly enough to learn their quirks. My hop'n'pops were always a gamble with a Skyvan.

1st time I climbed on board a Skyvan, Pat Dodgin gave me a hand up on the tail gate. I remarked how loud it was. Pat replied:

"Damn skydivers, if I gave you a hundred dollar bill you would complain because it was wrinkled"

"exit fast, fly smooth, dock soft and smile"
'nother james

[riggerrob 558]

On 1/2/2016 at 10:28 AM, wolfriverjoe said:

 

Tiny door, low tail, fairly high speed on jumprun.

Big door, high tail, reasonably slow jumprun speed: Otter.

Time to altitude between a KA/99 and Otter are not enough to matter, IMO.

Tons of fun, huge door, no tail considerations (but fairly slow climbing and very loud): Skyvan.

 

 

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

 

I agree with Joe.

How do I say this in a "politically correct" fashion?

I have jumped from 30-ish different types of airplanes and Beech Crafts are on my list of favorites after: Airvan, Allouette II, A-Star, Bell Jet Ranger, Bell UH-1 Huey, Breezy, most of the single-engined Cessnas, C-130 Hercules, CH-47 Chinook, DHC-4 Cariboo, DHC-5 Buffalo, DHC-6 Twin Otter, Dornier 27, Dornier 228, Douglas DC-3, Maule, Pilatus Porter, Quest Kodiak, Shorts Skyvan, etc.

My favorite jump planes have tail gates and I just wear ear plugs to limit hearing loss. Even cheap foam ear plugs reduce noise below fatigue levels and I only suffered minor hearing loss over 40 years of jumping.