masterrig 1 #26 January 30, 2006 I've seen steering lines twisted like those in your pictures. I've also seen where knots formed above the guide rings due to this and the parachute was not steerable. It doesn't take that long to straighten-out twisted lines. I would advise, taking the extra minute or two and make sure, the twists are out. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,116 #27 January 30, 2006 Why on earth would your friend think it doesn't matter? Take 2 pieces of line; twist one up, leave the other straight. Check lengths -- they're different. Now try running your fingers along one, then along the other. Which is easier? Apply that thought process to a slider coming down. Take a thinner piece of string (parachute cord is strong). Twist it way up and try to break. It's easier than if it's untwisted. Fibers are more stretched. It's very cheap preventive maintenance to untwist them. It takes an extra 10-30 seconds when I have it laid out to pack. I find that easier than doing it in the field, and by doing it each jump, it's just not going to get bad. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RossDagley 0 #28 January 30, 2006 I stow my toggles on landing, along with uncollapsing my slider. It adds an additional 30-45 seconds. At the end of each day on the last packjob, I walk the twists out of the brake lines - removing at most 2-3 twists. Those are pretty intense. How can anyone ever let lines get in this condition? If someone cant even be bothered to stow their toggles or perform a 60 second job once a day on life saving gear... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bluewaterstream 0 #29 January 30, 2006 To all of those that have posted informative responses, thank you - keep them coming. That's the point of this thread, to create a list of things that could potentially happen or that have happened in the past due to twists like these. To all of those being negative and contributing nothing, it does no good to call someone lazy and to talk shit about someone that you don't even know. This is a friend of mine that I'd like to help - not trash and talk shit about online. He is not an unsafe skydiver and has taken several canopy courses to increase his level of safety as a skydiver, maybe he just doesn't dork it up on dz.com as much as we do to learn things like this. I learned how to pack from several people and no one ever told me about untwisting your brakelines - I learned about this on dz.com and from my rigger. He hasn't learned the importance of this yet and I'm trying to help him out here. Try not to be so judgmental about someone that you don't even know. Here's the deal, I borrowed his rig to make a jump but I don't jump other peoples pack jobs. So, I unpacked his rig, inspected it, changed a few things, untwisted the brake lines, packed it back up, and jumped it. Later when I saw him I explained to him why I thought it was a bad idea to jump with that many twists in his brake lines and told him about some of the things that I've read on dz.com and what my rigger has told me. I personally milk the lines just about every time I pack. Overkill, maybe, but that's what I do. Better safe than sorry and it only adds an extra 30 seconds or so to my pack job. I don't rush and I put more time into packing than most. I told him that's what I do, but most don't think it's necessary to milk the lines that often. I encouraged him to talk to a rigger, do his own research, and then decide for himself how often to milk the lines. He was listening to what I had to say up until he took my recommendation and talked to a rigger. What he gathered from this rigger is that because he jumps spectra (microline) it is very unlikely to cause any problems due to its slickness. I'm well aware of the fact that due to spectras slickness, it's "less likely" to create tension knots than old, fuzzy, worn out dacron - but I still don't think that this is something to fuck around with. Maybe he misunderstood what the rigger was telling him, who knows. So once again, to all of those that have posted informative responses, thank you - keep them coming. Thanks, J-Jennings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kimblair13 0 #30 January 30, 2006 QuoteTo all of those being negative and contributing nothing, it does no good to call someone lazy and to talk shit about someone that you don't even know. Whoa there spunky...no need to get your panties in a bunch... To me, most people that let stuff like that happen to their gear is simply lazy. Or they don't know, but seriously, come on. I don't think this thread needed to be drawn out as much as it is. You asked a question...got answers and for whatever reason kept it going. When you ask a question and get clear answers...don't ask "why?" like a smart ass. As far as "shit talkers"...that's what dz.com is, haven't ya heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bluewaterstream 0 #31 January 30, 2006 QuoteWord. QuoteYes, don't be a lazy mo fo and just fix it. It'll take you like 30 extra seconds. QuoteI don't think this thread needed to be drawn out as much as it is. Whoa there "Kimbo"... OK, I'll tell him to "just fix it" because little Kimbo on dz.com said so. That should work. Thanks, you've been very helpful. QuoteWhen you ask a question and get clear answers...don't ask "why?" like a smart ass. I was asking them to explain "why" they feel the way they do. I'm sure that they have reasons for feeling the way they do regarding twisted brake lines and I wanted to hear what those reasons were. People like diablopilot, sundevil777, masterrig, etc. actually offered "clear answers", backed up their opinions, and gave examples - which is the whole point of this thread. So, come' on Miss Knowledgeable - you've posted 3 times already but you still haven't given us one reason of why you think twisted lines are bad. Enlighten us all with your superior knowledge. I'll even hook you up with some bunched up panties if you drop some of that Kimbo intellect on us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #32 January 30, 2006 Calm down. Quoteyou think twisted lines are bad Maybe that person think the answer has been answer about 5 times already in the thread. I know its why I dindt bother replying here.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #33 January 30, 2006 Quote... but a rigger there over heard and said it's better to untwist the lines under canopy... I don't think it is a good idea to do maintenance in the air when you are supposed to be paying attention to flying. Untwist on the ground. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kimblair13 0 #34 January 30, 2006 Quote Maybe that person think the answer has been answer about 5 times already in the thread. I know its why I dindt bother replying here. Exactly...obviously your benighted brain can't comprehend what all that means. Basically, you ask a question, you get answers and continue to ask when it's been answered...if your illiterate...get your friend that owns the canopy and have him help you comprehend. I wasn't the only one that mentioned laziness, in fact wasn't even the first. Don't know what your beef is, but seriously, grow up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #35 January 30, 2006 Quotetwists in the brake lines... Problematic? Heck no, this isn't any problem at all, and not worth the time it takes to fix them. Likewise, wearing your seat belt is not worth the 5 seconds it takes to click it either. Just forget the darned thing! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoop 0 #36 January 30, 2006 Im a minor obsessive compulsive and theres no way Id allow that. Id freak out if I knew they were like that. Neat and tidy things are always happier! Notice how your car always seems better after youve washed it Maybe not as serious reply as some of the other guys. But the end result would be the same. Why have an otherwise nice packjob and then have twisted steering lines Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bluewaterstream 0 #37 January 30, 2006 One rigger already gave him bad advice - my intent here was to hopefully have other riggers chime in and explain to him why twists in his brake lines are something that he should be concerned with. Even if points were being repeated, I think that it would have been helpful for him. Oh well, he's on his own with this one - this simply isn't worth it. I tried. And by the way... Kim, I was just joking around with you. I didn't realize how serious this was going to get. This whole thing had me laughing my ass off - come' on, it's the internet - how can you get upset over something like this? I love you Kim, don't be like that... Me and my "benighted brain" are gonna go stare at a wall for a few hours... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kimblair13 0 #38 January 30, 2006 I just joking too. Either way, I'm done with classes for the day and had nothing better to do. It was fun while it lasted... How did you know my nickname was Kimbo! Are you checking out my profile, stalking me and shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bluewaterstream 0 #39 January 30, 2006 No doubt, I checked your profile to see if you jumped in Colorado so that it would be easier flirt with you in person. I think we have solid love/hate potential here. Too bad you're not from CO, I could have - like - taught you about brake lines and stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #40 January 31, 2006 Wow, this thread got crazy! 'bout them brakelines, yes the twists cause problems, some subtle, some wicked. There are several good bits of info on this thread. When I do rigging for a customer I like to also have the main as well. A couple days ago while inspecting the fellas main canopy the right brake line was severely twisted and the left had very few twists. After questioning the owner, his canopy has been turning to the right a bit after opening. Once he lands he drops the right toggle and pulls the left. The right toggle leaves his hand and riser for more time than the left. Result is the obvious. After removing the twists, to a certain extent the line would not untwist. Once a certain amount of twists are in the brakelines and having been loaded(jumped) the twists take a 'set'. Basically one side of the weave of the line is loaded more than the other side and tweaks the weave. To fix this, replace the mid and lower control line at about $45 a set. Have you ever twisted a rope or line until it makes a loop on its own from a result of the twists? The loop caused is a hazard which can cause tension knots. If the loop closes around another line there is a good possibility of a knot. Keep in mind during deployment the lines are a bit slack and whipping wildly as the bag reaches full line stretch. Like another poster mentioned, the twisted line also breaks easier. When you have your own gear if you untwist your brake lines regularly the maintenance will cost less over time, the performance of the canopy will last longer as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bluewaterstream 0 #41 January 31, 2006 Great post - thanks for adding this. His brake lines definitely took a 'set' as you described, but unfortunately the rigger that looked at his lines insisted that some brake lines come deformed like that from the factory and that he shouldn't worry about it. In my original post, this is what I was referring to as "brake line deformation/damage". Thanks again for posting this. I may actually send this thread to my friend after all, it should be more than enough info to make him re-think all of this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #42 January 31, 2006 Quotebut unfortunately the rigger that looked at his lines insisted that some brake lines come deformed like that from the factory and that he shouldn't worry about it. Eh?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #43 January 31, 2006 QuoteQuote... but a rigger there over heard and said it's better to untwist the lines under canopy... I don't think it is a good idea to do maintenance in the air when you are supposed to be paying attention to flying. Untwist on the ground. I agree, Never attempt to do rigging in the air. Period. If you canopy needs maintenance of any kind do it on the ground before you jump it. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeryde13 0 #44 January 31, 2006 that was definately part of the discusion that day, but the other side of it was it was better for the brake lienes to do it under load. these were both guys with many 1000 jumps, so i don't know for the life of me which is more right ..... i just don't let my lines get twisted though._________________________________________ people see me as a challenge to their balance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #45 January 31, 2006 They are wrong. There is no need to untwist them under load, and rigging in the air is dangerous.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #46 January 31, 2006 Your welcome. I feel you have learned a good bit. Have fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #47 January 31, 2006 QuoteThey are wrong. There is no need to untwist them under load, and rigging in the air is dangerous. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are wrong. First, it is easier to untwist lines when they have a bit of slack. Secondly, in air is by far the most dangerous place to do any rigging. Thirdly, the last thing I want is another jumper colliding with me because he got pre-occupied with in-air rigging. The best place to untwist steering lines is the packing shed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #48 January 31, 2006 I encouraged him to talk to a rigger, do his own research, and then decide for himself how often to milk the lines. He was listening to what I had to say up until he took my recommendation and talked to a rigger. What he gathered from this rigger is that because he jumps Spectra (microline) it is very unlikely to cause any problems due to its slickness. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sounds like your buddy suffers from "selective memory." He only remembered what he wanted to hear from the rigger and forgot all the rest. Granted, slippery new 500 pound Spectra is less likely to develop tension knots than dirty, fuzzy, fat Dacron lines, but being too lazy to untwist steering lines is just a bad habit - with any type of suspension line. I am a rigger and often tell spectators "tease Joe about his twisted steering lines" before Joe has finished flaring. Then I disappear back into my loft. If Joe's steering lines are still twisted - at his next I&R - I charge Joe extra for my time to untwist them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bluewaterstream 0 #49 January 31, 2006 QuoteSounds like your buddy suffers from "selective memory." He only remembered what he wanted to hear from the rigger and forgot all the rest. Either he suffers from selective memory or he received bad advice from this rigger. I really don't know this rigger very well, but he actually does come across as fairly knowledgeable and I find it hard to believe that he would actually give out such bad advice - so who knows. If my buddy chooses to ignore the fact that all of you have basically reinforced everything that I was telling him, that's his deal. Most, if not all, of the detailed and informative responses in this thread are from riggers - I think that will influence his decision greatly. All I know for sure is that he owes me a few pints of Guinness for doin' all this additional research for him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #50 January 31, 2006 All I know for sure is that he owes me a few pints of Guinness for doin' all this additional research for him. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HAH! He owes you a KEG of Guinness. You should invite several of these riggers over to help you drink it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites