Brakes getting unstowed during opening

[sundevil777 93]

As I mentioned in a separate thread, I've never had a brake fire prematurely, even though I put 1000 jumps on old style toggles with no nose hood, only velcro to hold it down and no riser covers.

I've also never had narrow risers that allow a slider to go sliding at high speed over the toggles.

So, now that I think of it, that sure seems like a likely cause of at least some or many of these brake fires. The slider going over it must surely be able to put some downward pressure on the toggle, just like unstowing it. It is all a matter of how much force the slider can apply, which would depend on the shape/position of the toggle, size of grommet.

Perhaps I am jumping to conclusions. Any thoughts?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[RTB 0]

The jerk of the opening can also get the toggle to move or come lose. With a velcro less toggle that is secured at both top and bottom there needs to be a small amount of slack in the toggle. If the toggle is stretched the opening may cause the riser to stretch slightly and pull the lower part of the toggle which can make the toggle com loose.
Don't know if this made any sense in writing but it can easily be demonstrated with the equipment.

[FrogNog 1]

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... I've never had a brake fire prematurely ...

... that sure seems like a likely cause of at least some or many of these brake fires.

(Emphasis is mine.)

Which brake fires are you talking about? Clearly not the ones you haven't had.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[RMURRAY 1]

the slider on my VX comes down fast (usually). There are many good designs however I am sticking with JumpShacks snap toggles. Never a problem.

rm

[sundevil777 93]

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... I've never had a brake fire prematurely ...

... that sure seems like a likely cause of at least some or many of these brake fires.

(Emphasis is mine.)

Which brake fires are you talking about? Clearly not the ones you haven't had.

I was referring to the reports from others.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[riggerrob 558]

Okam's Razor: packers are not stowing toggles properly.

Modern toggles are so complicated (with hoods, multiple tuck tabs and a bewildering array of ways to stow excess steering lines), that young packers get overwhelmed.
During packing lessons, I have had to stop several junior jumpers to tell them: "While you fixate on a minor point (hood), you are forgetting a major point (pulling the cat's eye below the ring)."

[piisfish 135]

Parachutes de France pin toggles are great for that. a pin upwards on top and 2 tabs downwards.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[kelpdiver 2]

the wings toggles don't have a method for storing the excess, at least not documented in the manual.

But at least two of my 3 break fires came from body position leading to the risers smacking my mouth.

[mjosparky 3]

How many of the "brake fires" do you think are caused by the jumper reaching up for the risers during deployment? That first second or 2 is pretty chaotic

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[justinb138 0]

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the wings toggles don't have a method for storing the excess, at least not documented in the manual.

The wings type 17 risers I've got have elastic on the back to stow the excess, but the type 8 pair I have doesn't.

I just sewed some tape on the back to stow it, as having that extra steering line flapping around didn't look too fun.

[piisfish 135]

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body position leading to the risers smacking my mouth.

can you explain what position you have with your mouth on deployment ??

Don't try to bite your risers, they try to keep your lines connected to your cutaway system

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[DeNReN 0]

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the wings toggles don't have a method for storing the excess, at least not documented in the manual.

the online manual does tell you how....

"Setting the brakes: Your Wings harness is equipped with a unique velcroless toggle system which facilitates complete stowage of excess steering line. Pull the control line down untill the brake loop just passes through the guide ring. Insert the toggle through the brake loop and into the upper stow pocket on the riser. Fold the excess control line and insert it into the lower toggle pocket. Insert the toggle into the lower pocket on top of the excess control line."

[kelpdiver 2]

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can you explain what position you have with your mouth on deployment ??

One that hurts! Nothing like getting a light version of a punch in the lip to then find yourself in a spin.

Sounds like they updated the online versions, so I'll go look there again. I have the type 8 risers.

[ernokaikkonen 0]

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Parachutes de France pin toggles are great for that. a pin upwards on top and 2 tabs downwards.

Yup, I agree. I do like my PdF toggles. Enough to have modified my Aerodyne risers to take the PdF toggles. The combination of the pin used to lock the brakes, and the material used in the making of the toggle itself makes the toggles very low-profile, and as such much less likely to be knocked off by a rapidly descending slider.

Many people don't like them for any of the following reasons:
-The brakes are "fiddly" to set: the pin needs to go through the cats-eye, over the ring, and through the cats-eye again, which makes it a bit more work to set the brakes.
-The narrower material makes the toggles more likely to "bite" into your hands, many people find this uncomfortable.
-Some people are even put off by the fact that the toggle has a metal pin in it; the reasoning being "If I fall down holding the pin next to my hand, it might hurt me, being sharp and metal and pointy."

I like my PdF toggles, I'm not trading them for anything else(until something better comes on the market, of course).

[piisfish 135]

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-Some people are even put off by the fact that the toggle has a metal pin in it; the reasoning being "If I fall down holding the pin next to my hand, it might hurt me, being sharp and metal and pointy.".

do the same people jump with a closing pin or a Pack-Boy around their necks ??

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[peek 20]

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As I mentioned in a separate thread, I've never had a brake fire prematurely, even though I put 1000 jumps on old style toggles with no nose hood, only velcro to hold it down and no riser covers.

It is because Velcro toggles (with Velcro in good condition) and simply much stronger than any other toggle stowage method.

The convenience of not having to replace worn Velcro is arguable, but not the strength.

You will notice that most rig manufacturers continue to use Velcro on reserve toggles. When it really needs to be secure, use Velcro.

I believe the stowage of my main canopy's toggle to be really important, therefore I use Velcro.

[CrazyL 0]

Ok, I have MADE and/or MODIFIED many RISERS and TOGGLES and have worked with MANY DESIGNS to meet the needs of todays skydivers special needs. Maybe I can help. Gear has made advancements throughout time. Much has remained the same. Main risers have changed more rapidly than most all other components. There are many designs out there. Main risers are not TSO'd which may have a little bit to do with the many designs. Some cover all the bases, function well,and serve their purpose well. Like type 8 risers w/ velcro toggles and excess line velcro stow and no extras. It is highly doubtfull that the slider would untow the toggle from the brake setting prematurely with type 8 risers for a few reasons. One being that the diameter of the slider grommet barely fits over the type 8 risers especially if there a slider bumpers covering the links. PREMATURE BRAKE RELEASE: due to riser design is common with many types of velcroless toggle systems, there are a few reasons. Wanna know why? If anyone is interested say so and i'll spell out why. The answer could be a long winded one but i'll give it up if theres interest.

[nws01 0]

I have never had them come unstowed on opening but I did have someone pack my rig without setting the brakes.

It opened so hard on my spectre my cutaway handle came out of the velcro and was dangling a more than a few inches in front of me. The lines were severely twisted. I chopped it because the cutaway handle was out so much. I probably could have gotten the twists out.

Steve Curtis's brother borrowed his rig once. Steve grabbed it and jumped it. He landed and walked into the hanger and told his brother, "I don't mind if you pack my rig just make sure you set the brakes." He was on a heavily loaded stilletto and didn't chop it.

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[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

OK, I'm interested.

[wildjump 0]

It took two mals in two weeks on my Velo to determine that this was exactly the cause. A toggle keeper adjustment and Poof, problem solved. I suspect many brake fires are caused by this, If you have had one on opening, check out your toggles and keepers and make sure they can't come unstowed under riser pressure

[bob.dino 0]

I'm also interested.

[CrazyL 0]

Ok here goes: Premature Brake Release is caused by one of two things in most cases. Cause 1: not properly stowed (pilot error). Cause 2: slider hits the tip of the toggle hard enough to unstow the brake. Cause 1 can happen with any type of riser and toggle. Cause 2 happens predominantly with type 17 (1") risers mostly due to the amount of resistance holding the toggle in place during deployment. The velcro riser/toggle covers most bases yet for some skydivers velcro makes the excess line fuzzy and scary to jump. Some jumpers prefer velcroless riser/toggle for this reason. Most risers being jumped have a toggle keeper that holds the tip of the toggle once the brake is set. Majority of toggle keepers are made with 1" elastic, type 3 tape or type 12. Some open at the top some sewn closed. The hard tip of the toggle has for the most part remained the same throughout time. For the time being I will limit this discussion to U.S. manufactured toggle designs. Velcroless toggles: Tip of toggle is held in place by the toggle keeper w/ brake set. For the rest of the toggle from the grommet down there are many designs. The lower part of the toggle may be held in place by a straight pin fitting into a sleeve on the riser, an elastic keeper holding a hard sewn part of the toggle, stiffener fitting into a sleeve, a snap on riser and toggle, etc. From what i've seen, the majority of toggle designs that have no resistance below the grommet on the toggle release too easily and have been partly the cause of some mals. The designs that have positive resistance just below the grommet do not release as easily when the slider races down the lines and slams into the tip of the toggle. There are more reasons why the slider even makes it to the toggle area,the connector links. Soft links are standard now days. Many skydivers use them. Some have slider bumpers that work for a while. Rapide links and silicon slider bumpers are still in use as well. Each have their pros and cons. I'd bet many skydivers who jump with soft links on type 17 mini risers have been surprised to have their slider over their toggles, wondering to push it up or pull it down. Those with velcroless with premature brake release as well. Some velcroless designs have no place to stow the excess line. Some do. There are a few more things about risers and toggles i could write about here, maybe later.

[CrazyL 0]

There is no real interest in this subject, why did you people lead me to believe there was interest. I waisted more time writing info to meet your needs and no f$#$%^&*rs care to respond. DONE dont ask .

[bob.dino 0]

There is interest; I just missed your post.

[CrazyL 0]

Thanks. I'm not one to waist time. I'd like to think that my posts to this thread is not a waist of time. I like to help jumpers make since out of skydiving and the gear we use.