Another suit

[FlyingJ 0]

One other thought in regard to loved ones, etc. suing on your behalf...consider that a situation like that may not be just about you. You, the broke skydiver, might feel strongly about not suing anyone based on an injury, but how would you feel about your parents losing their house trying to pay all of your medical bills because you were broke and didn't want them to sue? I'm not suggesting that suing should ever be a first resort, and the thought of suing someone based on an injury in a dangerous sport that you knowingly stepped into makes me cringe, but keep in mind when you sign that waiver that a decision like that might not be just about you.

It hit home for me a few years back when I wasn't able to keep making my health insurance payments. My dad stepped in with the comment that it was worth it to him to help me out for a few months until I could get back on my feet because he would lose his house if that's what it took to help me and making a few insurance payments for me would be a whole lot cheaper.

Killing threads since 2004.

[normiss 620]

You've highlighted the precise purpose for the waiver parts that include "nor my survivors".

Why sign a waiver if you have a chance of not adhering to it???

If we all ignore the waivers, we're out of business folks. Liability has closed other businesses, you want drop zones to follow suit??? It only takes ONE lawsuit!

This IS WHY we have waivers! We knowingly accept the risk!!! Cover your own ass with proper insurance!!!!!!!!!!

[Gato 0]

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The lynch mobs that form on this site are absolutely amazing. Passing judgement without credible facts or information makes EVERYONE on this site (as someone else has said) just as ingnorant as the media that people here so commonly blame.

Some of you people think you fucking know it all. Your comments serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever except to perhaps fill a void in what could be perceived as a gaping hole in your boring lives.

Skydiving is not sacred. Skydiving is not the be all to end all. You people who state that you would not sue if you were to be injured or would prefer your family not to sue if you die have no room to speak until you are in those fucking shoes. Unless you have been in that position (and I know some of us have been) how about shutting the fuck up.

Ok, then - since skydiving isn't the be-all end-all, my jump numbers shouldn't matter in what I'm going to say.

For someone who just registered yesterday, you words are very harsh and judgmental. And quite unnecessary.

A lot of people love this sport (as someone with your jump numbers can attest), and a lot of us can envision the death of our home DZ or skydiving itself every time a new lawsuit is filed.

I'm not excusing anyone's behavior, but you sir, were downright insulting.

T.I.N.S.

[turtlespeed 212]

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Amazing how many people think skydiving is the holy grail. Guess what, its not.

The lynch mobs that form on this site are absolutely amazing. Passing judgement without credible facts or information makes EVERYONE on this site (as someone else has said) just as ingnorant as the media that people here so commonly blame.

Some of you people think you fucking know it all. Your comments serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever except to perhaps fill a void in what could be perceived as a gaping hole in your boring lives.

Skydiving is not sacred. Skydiving is not the be all to end all. You people who state that you would not sue if you were to be injured or would prefer your family not to sue if you die have no room to speak until you are in those fucking shoes. Unless you have been in that position (and I know some of us have been) how about shutting the fuck up.

Life is not black and white. There are many many shades of grey. Get off your fucking soapboxes (cause I am getting off mine now) worry about yourself and stay the fuck out of other peoples business and personal choices.

That's a pretty stern opinion for someone that is trying to condemn opinions and conversation.

Take your own advice and, if you have nothing that can add value to the conversation, STFU.

Can I repete myself . . . TAKE YOUR OWN ADVICE.

You are amusing . . . in what little you opine.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[FlyingJ 0]

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You've highlighted the precise purpose for the waiver parts that include "nor my survivors".

Why sign a waiver if you have a chance of not adhering to it???

If we all ignore the waivers, we're out of business folks. Liability has closed other businesses, you want drop zones to follow suit??? It only takes ONE lawsuit!

This IS WHY we have waivers! We knowingly accept the risk!!! Cover your own ass with proper insurance!!!!!!!!!!

I agree. I didn't mean for my comment to be an approval of litigation by loved ones, just that people need to think about who is going to be responsible for keeping your ass alive if you can't cover it yourself before you go and sign that waiver. What will it do to their lives in order to save yours and can you really expect them to do that without seeking other options to cover costs. If you can't, than maybe you don't need to be signing that waiver.

Hope that clarifies my post a little more.

Killing threads since 2004.

[turtlespeed 212]

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You've highlighted the precise purpose for the waiver parts that include "nor my survivors".

Why sign a waiver if you have a chance of not adhering to it???

If we all ignore the waivers, we're out of business folks. Liability has closed other businesses, you want drop zones to follow suit??? It only takes ONE lawsuit!

This IS WHY we have waivers! We knowingly accept the risk!!! Cover your own ass with proper insurance!!!!!!!!!!

I agree. I didn't mean for my comment to be an approval of litigation by loved ones, just that people need to think about who is going to be responsible for keeping your ass alive if you can't cover it yourself before you go and sign that waiver. What will it do to their lives in order to save yours and can you really expect them to do that without seeking other options to cover costs. If you can't, than maybe you don't need to be signing that waiver.

Hope that clarifies my post a little more.

So how do we stop the "survivors" from suing? If I die, in skydiving, then I know that my family is aware of my wishes. BUT, how am I supposed to stop them - do we need to retain a lawyer to sue them into not retaining a lawyer?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[FlyingJ 0]

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You've highlighted the precise purpose for the waiver parts that include "nor my survivors".

Why sign a waiver if you have a chance of not adhering to it???

If we all ignore the waivers, we're out of business folks. Liability has closed other businesses, you want drop zones to follow suit??? It only takes ONE lawsuit!

This IS WHY we have waivers! We knowingly accept the risk!!! Cover your own ass with proper insurance!!!!!!!!!!

I agree. I didn't mean for my comment to be an approval of litigation by loved ones, just that people need to think about who is going to be responsible for keeping your ass alive if you can't cover it yourself before you go and sign that waiver. What will it do to their lives in order to save yours and can you really expect them to do that without seeking other options to cover costs. If you can't, than maybe you don't need to be signing that waiver.

Hope that clarifies my post a little more.

So how do we stop the "survivors" from suing? If I die, in skydiving, then I know that my family is aware of my wishes. BUT, how am I supposed to stop them - do we need to retain a lawyer to sue them into not retaining a lawyer?

It's obviously impossible. However, I think by doing what you can to make sure your ass is covered on your own (insurance, etc.) is about as much as you can do. My thoughts are based primarily on the person going out and jumping with no insurance, getting hurt and a family being left with footing all the bills. What choice do they have if they want their spouse, kid, etc. to live? I'm lucky to know that I have a family that would do anything to help me. Because of that I feel it is very important that I carry the insurance/major medical, etc. that should hopefully never make it necessary for them to get involved.

I should mention that I'm really talking about direct medical bills, life saving kind of costs. I think a dude that decides to sue for his pain and suffering because he has to make his own sammichs while his wife is laid up from an injury should be kicked in the nuts.

Killing threads since 2004.

[tmanmike 0]

Everyone here is basing their entire argument on the fact that we all understand the dangers we inherently take on while participating in this sport and therefore need to assume 100% responsibility for what happens to us while participating in this sport.

That is complete and total utter bullshit.

You understand the risk of driving a car everyday. You understand you can die driving down the road. Next time you get plowed into by someone else, and it was in fact someone elses fault you better not sue, because you understood the risks before getting behind the wheel.

The reason people sue in that scenario is because someone else was truly to blame. If it was not for someone elses actions the accident would not have occured.

Exact same goes with skydiving. You frap in, fuck up in freefall, do whatever then you have no one to blame but yourself.

You get hurt "potentially" due to someone elses fault, you have every fucking right in the world to sue whoever the hell you want.

Waivers are bullshit. No judge or jury would uphold a waiver if in fact someone else was proven negligent and at fault for someone's injury or death.

This is a fucking stupid discussion. This is common sense.

[jcd11235 0]

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You've highlighted the precise purpose for the waiver parts that include "nor my survivors".

I have serious doubts about that clause having any legal weight. Last I checked, unless I have been given power of attorney, I can't sign for anyone who may survive me. I certainly cannot sign away their right to sue without POA.

I'm not saying survivors should sue, just that it's doubtful that the jumper can prevent it by signing a waiver.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Gato 0]

Again, you are very harsh.

Should I assume T Man Mike stands for "Tera's Man, Mike?"

If so, then you should identify yourself as such and actually contribute to the conversation - unless it's just a stupid fucking conversation, as you said.

T.I.N.S.

[normiss 620]

A number of states have understood the risk of cars and are now "no fault" states, placed limits on the amount of lawsuit settlements, and other constraints to try and reign in frivilous lawsuits. Some states have placed the same contraints on suing when guns are involved. Lawsuits can and do put people out of business for the wrong reasons. Waivers are not bullshit, they are an effort to stay inbusiness when something tragic happens.
Driving a car and letting go of an aircraft are two entirely different risks. Again, that's why we sign the waiver...in the event anything goes wrong beyond my control, I AM ACCEPTING those risks and agree to not sue you, the company, the guy that packed my rig, the guy the loaded the jumpship with fuel.

Remind me not to jump with you....nevermind, you won't have to. I choose to not jump with a number of people due to their ability to increase the risk outside of my acceptance.

You're exactly right about one thing....this IS a fucking stupid discussion it IS common sense.
If you don't want to accept the risk buy a bowling ball.
apparently we don't all see this sport in the same light.

[airtwardo 6]

Would make it a bit difficult to assess the up-keep of the aircraft and the skill of the pilot immediately, wouldn't it?

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No~ If I have any questions I ask...if it doesn't 'feel' right I'll leave.

Another aspect of risk assessment, look, learn & live the sport with a constant eye toward minimising bad possibilities...if you do that and STILL get shit-hammered well, welcome to skydiving.

Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances, for a guaranteed safe ride....gotta go see Micky Mouse!


When one finally comes to understand that strapping on a rig is an innately dangerous and possibly foolish endeavour,

~ yet one personifying the joy & responsibility of free choice......all thoughts of suits SHOULD fade away.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[turtlespeed 212]

So - if I understand what you are trying to convey, you believe that even though you know, and have read about, and have signed a document that identifies that there is an unlimited supply of scenarios for "Injury or even Death", and you willingly sign this document, stating that you will not sue because you accept the liability and consequenses of yours and others actions . . . that you are un-aware of the risks?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[pilotdave 0]

I don't sign a waiver before I get in my car. If I sue someone for hitting me, the highway isn't going to go out of business. Waivers are not BS. This is a dangerous sport. If you don't accept that you could be hurt by someone else, you can't be skydiving. It's that simple. You NEED to accept it, because skydiving won't work any other way. It's just dangerous. It's dangerous because equipment can fail, planes can crash, you can make mistakes, and other people can make mistakes. And sometimes stuff just goes wrong and nobody is at fault. It's just the way it is. If you don't agree, please don't sign the waiver.

Dave

[tmanmike 0]

If poor aircraft maintenance causes injury or death you better bet your ass I am going to sue.

If drugs or alcohol (ingested by someone else responsible for my injury) causes my injury you better bet your ass I am going to sue.

If an improperly trained student causes my injury you better bet your ass I am going to sue.

If a riggers inability to properly pack my reserve causes injury or death you better bet your ass I am going to sue.

If rules and regulations are not followed and subsequently end up causing my injury or death you better bet your ass there will be a lawsuit.

The attitude you people have is setting a precedent for ZERO RESPONSIBILITY to be taken by anybody in this sport except each individual. Once again, that is total bullshit.

This attitude is saying, hey its ok if shit fucks up, because we all knew the risks. Fuck that. People need to be held responsible for mistakes.

Accidents happen, yes. If a rule was broken, or a law was broken, or proper guidelines werent followed then people need to be held responsible. Plain and simple.

Ever think that this attitude is what is potentially making our sport MORE DANGEROUS?

[normiss 620]

Please don't refer to skydiving as "our" sport.
We do not see it the same at all.


Drug testing has a very loose time constraint...you can't tell me WHEN someone ingested drugs found in them at a later test date.
You cannot measure how one student is more "properly" trained than another, people react differently in stressful situations.
A riggers pack job when PERFECT does not ensure a guarenteed perfect canopy.

I'm for 100% responsibility. MINE
As the adult, legal, person that accepts the fact that heaving my body at the planet WILL result in death.
Unless I act to preserve my own life.

[Thanatos340 1]

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People need to be held responsible for mistakes.

And you think Lawsuits do that??

Lawsuits do nothing more then Make Lawyers Rich and cost the rest of more in Insurance premums.

BTW, Where do you Jump? Your DZO should know that if you no intentions of honoring the agreement (waiver) you signed if anything goes wrong.

[gmanpilot 0]

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You understand the risk of driving a car everyday.... Exact same goes with skydiving.

Your analogy is invalid because it is based on the too often repeated fallacy that driving a car is anywhere near as dangerous as skydiving. The waiver is designed to protect the skydiving industry as much as it is designed to protect the business owner.

If the DZO's do not have enforceable waivers, the same thing will happen to the skydiving industry as happened to the General Aviation industry in the 1980's (until congress intervened). The single engine, piston aircraft manufacturers simply ceased doing business because of law suits, and that's what will happen to all but the smallest DZ's if the waivers are not enforceable, irregardless of who is at fault.

I feel for the survivors in these cases, but skydiving is dangerous...period. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

_________________________________________
-There's always free cheese in a mouse trap.

[Gato 0]

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The attitude you people have is setting a precedent for ZERO RESPONSIBILITY to be taken by anybody in this sport except each individual.

Yep.

That's the way I understood it before I ever stepped foot on a DZ.

I hope I'm not in the wrong place at the wrong time, but I have accepted responsibility for that possible outcome. If it were any other way, it wouldn't be a sport, it would be a ride at Six Flags.

Do pro football players sue other players for their injuries? Can a skier sue a resort because he or she CHOSE to go down the double black diamond?

T.I.N.S.

[NWFlyer 2]

Another interesting question that I don't know the answer to is whether my insurance company could go after the DZ or the DZ's insurance company... even I never got a lawyer involved. That would suck, but insurance companies try very hard to find someone else responsible for the bills (that's why they always ask you if you got hurt in an auto accident or at work ... if the health insurer can show another insurer is responsible, they will do so.). Hopefully the waiver would stand up in that case.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[turtlespeed 212]

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If poor aircraft maintenance causes injury or death you better bet your ass I am going to sue.

You boarded the plane - you know it's a jump plane - get over it - YOU SIGNED THE WAIVER

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If drugs or alcohol (ingested by someone else responsible for my injury) causes my injury you better bet your ass I am going to sue.

That would go to the individual - and you can get that after the authorities - BECAUSE YOU SIGNED THE WAIVER

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If an improperly trained student causes my injury you better bet your ass I am going to sue.

Ascenine - You shouldn't be in the same airspace as a student anyway. Not saying it doesn't happen - but you are "supposed" to be an experianced skydiver, and therefore know how to conduct yourself in the air. AND YOU SIGNED THE WAIVER

If you walk through a mall, and trip on a baby learning to walk, do you sue the baby and the mall? Go for it - BECAUSE YOU DIDN"T SIGN A WAIVER

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If a riggers inability to properly pack my reserve causes injury or death you better bet your ass I am going to sue.

You better give up jumping now, then. Tell your rigger that . . . see if you ever get a reserve repack again. OR Maybe they will have their own waiver for you.

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If rules and regulations are not followed and subsequently end up causing my injury or death you better bet your ass there will be a lawsuit.

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What rules and regs are you refering to?

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The attitude you people have is setting a precedent for ZERO RESPONSIBILITY to be taken by anybody in this sport except each individual. Once again, that is total bullshit.

You amuse me - you say you have 750 jumps and yet you still have no clue. Skydiving is a priveledge - not a right - accept the responsibility - or don't jump - go play ping pong, bowling, or hell try BASE . . . OR SIGN THE WAIVER

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This attitude is saying, hey its ok if shit fucks up, because we all knew the risks. Fuck that. People need to be held responsible for mistakes.

If you are too scared of the consequences, and won't accept the "No Suits" accountability for your own actions and others in turn, then get out of the sport . . . you don't have to jump, I say again, Skydiving is not a right, it is a choice - if you choose to skydive, you choose to not sue. Pretty simple and down the pipe, don't you think? Or DO YOU REFUSE TO SIGN THE WAIVERS?

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Accidents happen, yes. If a rule was broken, or a law was broken, or proper guidelines werent followed then people need to be held responsible. Plain and simple.

Nothing is that black and white - well except the waiver you have to sign - it says - no sue. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT DON'T SIGN THE WAIVER, and in turn, DON'T JUMP.

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Ever think that this attitude is what is potentially making our sport MORE DANGEROUS?

Yours, yes I do. I also think it keeps it the sport as I like it.

So, sign the waiver, agree not to sue, or just don't jump.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[kaerodyne 0]

You need to read the context of most of these original posts, way before your attitude surfaced. The majority of jumpers were upset that the husband was going to sue for the listed reasons, and many thought that was a despicable idea. More so we are all entitled to our opinion and wish when it comes to such matters, you seem not to have the ability to allow others to have that, without berating them.

I choose not to sue even for gross negligence on the part of individual involved in the normal day to day operation of a DZ. Thats my choice, deal with it.

In respects to an apology, to the jumpers involved in the possible lawsuit. Sorry I will not, I have a opinion on this matter, and even if we were family I would give you the same treatment.

I hope they all heal the physical and emotional damage this incident has caused. I to have lost countless friends in the sport and held someone's hand while they died in this great sport.

Blue Skies to everyone
Light, Love & Happiness

[catfishhunter 1]

Here I fixed it for you :)

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If poor aircraft maintenance causes injury or death you better bet your ass I am going to SHOOT SOMEONE (If I am still alive if not hope someone else will)
If drugs or alcohol (ingested by someone else responsible for my injury) causes my injury you better bet your ass I am going to SHOOT SOMEONE

If an improperly trained student causes my injury you better bet your ass I am going to WHOOP SOMEONE(isn't a shootable offense)

If a riggers inability to properly pack my reserve causes injury or death you better bet your ass I am going to Be DEAD so hopefully someone elses SHOOTS SOMEONE
If rules and regulations are not followed and subsequently end up causing my injury or death you better bet your ass I am whoopin' someone if I'm alive if I am dead hopefully someone will Shoot someone for me
The attitude you people have is setting a precedent for ZERO RESPONSIBILITY to be taken by anybody in this sport except each individual. Once again, that is total bullshit.I agree but I rather whoop' em or shoot em then sue them

This attitude is saying, hey its ok if shit fucks up, because we all knew the risks. Fuck that. People need to be held responsible for mistakes.see above

Accidents happen, yes. If a rule was broken, or a law was broken, or proper guidelines werent followed then people need to be held responsible. Plain and simple. again see above

Ever think that this attitude is what is potentially making our sport MORE DANGEROUS?

(In the un-fortunate event someone actually gets shot after I got hurt it wasn't me I was just Joking in this post )

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[shermanator 3]

I take back nothing that I have stated. Even if the suit is a mistake, I still hold my same views on the matter. Plain and simple. I signed the waiver. If I don't want to accept the fact that someone else can kill me in this sport, I'll stay away from the dropzone.. .

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

[jsaxton 0]

please get out of the sport.